Should I have sent this kid off?
- Thread starter RegalRef
- Start date
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SM
The avuncular one
It does amaze me that racism is abhorrent to all, yet descriminatiom based on sexuality is somehow frowned upon, but okay.
Those of us old enough to be alive at the time will remember the attitude toward racism in the 70s and 80s - frowned upon, but somehow okay. Hmmmm....
As for the OP, he has to walk. Someone being offended doesn't matter. It is the language used, not the outcome. Is it offensive, insulting or abusive? For example what if a player calls an opponent a fat cheating balding muthadudging (add generic racial slur here) c@nt bag - but the target is not offended, laughs and walks off? Does that mean you do nothing?
Those of us old enough to be alive at the time will remember the attitude toward racism in the 70s and 80s - frowned upon, but somehow okay. Hmmmm....
As for the OP, he has to walk. Someone being offended doesn't matter. It is the language used, not the outcome. Is it offensive, insulting or abusive? For example what if a player calls an opponent a fat cheating balding muthadudging (add generic racial slur here) c@nt bag - but the target is not offended, laughs and walks off? Does that mean you do nothing?
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Yacinho
Guest
Quenelle isn't an anti jewish gesture, stop the brainwash
This is the basis of the issue here.
Why would you be offended by racist abuse but not by homophobic abuse? Why would you dismiss for homophobic language only if the recipient of the abuse seemed upset but with racist language you would dismiss under any circumstance?
I think the problem that we have is that some people either don't consider homophobic insults as something to be overly worried about or don't consider "faggot" to be a homophobic insult. I think both these views are wrong and also against current FA guidelines.
RegalRef
Politically Incorrect
Does the factual correctness of the insult not also come into it as well? Is the player concerned not going to take more offence if it's true?
Had that been true I'm sure the player directed at would have felt discriminated against due to his sexuality, rather than an apparent false allegation masqueraded as an insult.
Of course, I'm not saying that anybody's sexuality makes them of lower social order before anybody starts getting stupid.
Had that been true I'm sure the player directed at would have felt discriminated against due to his sexuality, rather than an apparent false allegation masqueraded as an insult.
Of course, I'm not saying that anybody's sexuality makes them of lower social order before anybody starts getting stupid.
RegalRef
Politically Incorrect
Because I can only speak for myself and I don't personally take offence at homophobic language to another person when it is untrue. I would however if it was true.
I take offence at any racial language.
Ask me not why, I don't know, I don't care, that's the way I am.
micky2001
Well-Known Member
Quite rich coming from someone who's country who has just had anti Jewish attacks recently. Maybe a little more education is in order if you think that it is brainwash. Look at the facts. The FA deemed it offensive. Members of Jewish faith groups found it offensive and im pretty sure @DanCohen17 amongst others on here found it offensive but feel free to correct me.
I completely agree with McTavish and SM. Why do we have a divide on homophobic abuse, racist abuse and religious abuse. The laws state that if language or gestures are used in an offensive, abusive or insulting manner then the it must be punished with a red card, there are NO GREY AREAS (whether directed at a player, referee, spectator or no one in general but likely to cause offence). @RegalRef there is nothing in the rules regarding the reaction of a player affecting the sanction given, and i find your psychiatrist comment quite childish tbh.
And regarding your point about both players getting reds if he punched him. Why should it take something like that for you to take action. If the language is possible to cause offence then it MUST be punished, not brushed under the carpet or given a yellow if no one complains or shows outward emotions. That is why I feel a yellow is a cop out. Double standards. How do you know that guy didn't go home and kill himself because that was the last straw after constant abuse which society has accepted as normal and people of authority (i.e. referees) fail to deal with appropriately as they see it as acceptable.
Charlie Jones
Work Until You Don't Have To Introduce Yourself
I think we all need to remember, like I said, it's Sunday league football?
I don't actually care what any of you think, agree or not lol
Why don't we just all agree - if he is speaking the truth I.e. The victim is gay/black/Jewish/fat/4eyed - then he can't be sent of as he is just speaking the truth? Lol
I don't actually care what any of you think, agree or not lol
Why don't we just all agree - if he is speaking the truth I.e. The victim is gay/black/Jewish/fat/4eyed - then he can't be sent of as he is just speaking the truth? Lol
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Schoolboy error which has lead to the confusion......
There is no requirement for anyone to actually be offended, insulted or abused.......the offence is using words or gestures that are offensive, insulting or abusive. So, the consequences are irrelevant it's all about whether the offender was trying to offend, abuse or insult.......because as we know, certain words or gestures are offensive, insulting or abusive by their nature, use or context.
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Yacinho
Guest
Have you ever seen any show of Dieudonné ? Have you ever seen how he uses the quenelle in context to see if it's an anti jewish gesture ? But yeah, please educate me about my own country
SM
The avuncular one
hello thread, meet mr fork. You're done.
Gentlemen of the forum. Certain topics will always stir up passions, argument and discontent.
While I don't want to be the one to stifle debate (and enlightenment hopefully for some) at the same time pointless, circular arguments help nobody.
Racism, sexism, homophobia, or any descrimination (except against Manchester utd fans
) is not allowed on the refchat forum. The forum is about support, learning, advice, bit of banter maybe, a chance to cyber socialise with other referees. The forum works because of its users. This is a good place to come because of all of us and our different ideas and willingness to help each other. To learn from each other.
Let's not lose sight of that.
Gentlemen of the forum. Certain topics will always stir up passions, argument and discontent.
While I don't want to be the one to stifle debate (and enlightenment hopefully for some) at the same time pointless, circular arguments help nobody.
Racism, sexism, homophobia, or any descrimination (except against Manchester utd fans
) is not allowed on the refchat forum. The forum is about support, learning, advice, bit of banter maybe, a chance to cyber socialise with other referees. The forum works because of its users. This is a good place to come because of all of us and our different ideas and willingness to help each other. To learn from each other.Let's not lose sight of that.
DanCohen17
Simply The Best
I know this thread has been closed, but on this very rare occasion, I'm abusing my powers as a staff member. Any member that wishes to reply to the message is more than welcome to message me.
I'm not attempting to educate you on your country, but maybe you should learn about your fellow countrymen before coming on here and spouting.
In addition, if you wish to read my full views on this 'comedian', please have a search through as I'm fairly certain the original thread was only locked, and not deleted.
That's me done. I'll probably receive a message off SM or Ross by the time I wake up, but I couldn't leave it - so for that, I do apologise!
Yes, you are correct. I, along with a large number of fellow Jews, felt offended by this. The quenelle IS an anti-Semitic gesture and, whether done intentionally and knowingly or not, is (and does!) likely to cause offence to a religious group (let's remember, Judaism is a religion and not a race)
Yes Yacinho, I have (don't know about others). In attempting to fully educate myself during the Anelka-quenelle incident, I investigated into the back story of this Dieudonne chap. This is a man who is openly anti-Semitic (and has been charged as such!) and admitted that the quenelle was meant in a similar fashion to the old Nazi salute (he has since come out and denied these claims but there are still videos online if you look hard enough. I will not be posting links as I do not wish to further encourage this ignorant pig's hate nor create a wider known profile for him).
I'm not attempting to educate you on your country, but maybe you should learn about your fellow countrymen before coming on here and spouting.
In addition, if you wish to read my full views on this 'comedian', please have a search through as I'm fairly certain the original thread was only locked, and not deleted.
Charlie, dear Lord I hope this is sarcasm/attempted humour that doesn't come across online (although I fear it's not). Was it you (I may be wrong!) who commented earlier in the thread about the West Ham-Spurs chants? That is also something that I, and a large amount of Jews, find highly offensive. Why should any set of fans, or people, feel it's okay to chant about an act such as circumcision, something which is clearly part of our religion? If this isn't BLATANT anti-Semitism, then I don't know what is! I assume you've seen the clip of the WHU fans on a train going through a big Jewish area and singing this vile song?
That's me done. I'll probably receive a message off SM or Ross by the time I wake up, but I couldn't leave it - so for that, I do apologise!
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