Referee push, yellow card

[Ref Axel]

Why is it being harmful a factor? Surely the punishment is based on the action than the result?

Not at all. A referee always has to take note of the (possible) harmfulness. You wouldn't give out a yellow card for an unharmful tackle, so why would you for an unharmful push?

 

[Sheffields Finest]

Strike or attempted to strike is an red card offence, the latter doesn't even need contact!!

 

[Ref Axel]

Strike or attempted to strike is an red card offence, the latter doesn't even need contact!!

But Memphis did not strike.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

In rugby league they have grades of offences, great system really, each one has a tariff of a ban if you are guilty. Not saying this is the worst ive seen but any hands on a referee is totally frowned upon!! As it should be!!!

 

[QuaverRef]

Not at all. A referee always has to take note of the (possible) harmfulness. You wouldn't give out a yellow card for an unharmful tackle, so why would you for an unharmful push?

I’d have to disagree there. Is a trip or shirt pull necessarily causing harm? Or even a sliding tackle where you’ve caught a player late doesn’t necessarily have to cause pain to be a booking

 

[Ciley Myrus]

Strike or attempted to strike is an red card offence, the latter doesn't even need contact!!

A push is not a strike.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

A push is not a strike.

Be a red in Rugby!!

 

[Ref Axel]

I’d have to disagree there. Is a trip or shirt pull necessarily causing harm? Or even a sliding tackle where you’ve caught a player late doesn’t necessarily have to cause pain to be a booking

I never said you only have to caution when it's harmful. I was talking about Memphis' push, which at that moment was unharmful and does not deserve a red card at all. People are saying this is a straight red, but I would not see why. Nowhere in the LOTG does it state that this particular incident is a straight red. It could be considered 'unsportsmanlike behaviour', thus yellow.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

Only a small push..... yellow card to Alcock!!!

 

[santa sangria]

yes.

Which part of the laws?

 

[Ciley Myrus]

Only a small push..... yellow card to Alcock!!!

That was a clear act of violence, despite the keystone cop like stumble

 

[Ref Axel]

Only a small push..... yellow card to Alcock!!!

Don't even see why you would post this video. The player has already received a red card and pushes the ref after!

 

[santa sangria]

Without a defining law (that says any deliberate contact is a RC or similar, which I don't think there is - and I just checked law12 2018-19) then CONTEXT.

Ref here is strong, sees it coming, player is not aggressive, it's a bit sad, it's a friendly, I haven't seen what has gone on before or after, how much ceremony there was, what the significance of this game is for the teams, players, this specific player or the ref. While none of those things matter if you have a clear line/law/offence/sanction, they do matter if you have a judgement call to make.

If, and it's a big if, the ref has given a YC because he didn't feel threatened and that was 90% of his decision made (all other context taking up 10%) then I can understand it.

Big caveat, for me, in any of the leagues I officiate in, it's a red, friendly or not, any context if I am ref. If I am AR I am demanding the ref give the RC and it's the one thing I would have a major tanty about on the spot if a ref was reluctant. My opinion is, down the pyramid, we have to have zero tolerance for this. Ideally it would be the same at the top.

(This hasn't happened to me yet BTW)

 

[Ciley Myrus]

Without a defining law (that says any deliberate contact is a RC or similar, which I don't think there is - and I just checked law12 2018-19) then CONTEXT.

Ref here is strong, sees it coming, player is not aggressive, it's a bit sad, it's a friendly, I haven't seen what has gone on before or after, how much ceremony there was, what the significance of this game is for the teams, players, this specific player or the ref. While none of those things matter if you have a clear line/law/offence/sanction, they do matter if you have a judgement call to make.

If, and it's a big if, the ref has given a YC because he didn't feel threatened and that was 90% of his decision made (all other context taking up 10%) then I can understand it.

Big caveat, for me, in any of the leagues I officiate in, it's a red, friendly or not, any context if I am ref. If I am AR I am demanding the ref give the RC and it's the one thing I would have a major tanty about on the spot if a ref was reluctant. My opinion is, down the pyramid, we have to have zero tolerance for this. Ideally it would be the same at the top.

(This hasn't happened to me yet BTW)

Given your theory, Not aggressive etc, why the red!
What box do you tick on your misconduct form?
You cant go violent, if you are deeming it non aggression?

 

[Ref Axel]

I am quite sure - in my country - that if I would have sent a player of for said incident, he would be cleared after a review of the comission.

 

[santa sangria]

Given your theory, Not aggressive etc, why the red!
What box do you tick on your misconduct form?
You cant go violent, if you are deeming it non aggression?

Yup, Houston we have a problem... hence I asked the Capn what law he was referring to.

I think it would go under "using ...abusive... gestures" n'est pas @Ref Axel ?

 

[Ciley Myrus]

Pushing someone is, a push! Aggression at worst

Can of worms i guess

 

[RobOda]

Well, pushing is assault (or battery if you want to get all legal).

While the players sign up to the game in full awareness that sometimes handbags happen, the referee does not, or rather should not. Put it this way, you can have a scuffle with an idiot in the street if you want, but if you push the policeman popping round to sort it out, you're just asking for a bit of detention time.

The second reason for punishing it with a red is that I adhere to the view that those actions (shoving/pushing a referee) should be clamped down on with zero tolerance.

So, yeah, Violent conduct - the act only has to be 'deliberately violent' to meet the 'brutality' criteria if we're going by the LOTG glossary.

I also disagree that this creates any precedence about contact with the referee; I've disagreed with assessors before on this anyway, if a player wants my attention and taps my arm or whatever I'm not complaining, that's not violence, they're completely different things. If a player is shoving me, he's let his temper get the better of him and he's having an early bath.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

Well, pushing is assault (or battery if you want to get all legal).

While the players sign up to the game in full awareness that sometimes handbags happen, the referee does not, or rather should not. Put it this way, you can have a scuffle with an idiot in the street if you want, but if you push the policeman popping round to sort it out, you're just asking for a bit of detention time.

The second reason for punishing it with a red is that I adhere to the view that those actions (shoving/pushing a referee) should be clamped down on with zero tolerance.

So, yeah, Violent conduct - the act only has to be 'deliberately violent' to meet the 'brutality' criteria if we're going by the LOTG glossary.

I also disagree that this creates any precedence about contact with the referee; I've disagreed with assessors before on this anyway, if a player wants my attention and taps my arm or whatever I'm not complaining, that's not violence, they're completely different things. If a player is shoving me, he's let his temper get the better of him and he's having an early bath.

Great post, don't worry, the others make it up as they go along!!

 

[Ref Axel]

This is clearly an incident which can be taken care of in many ways. I don't think there is just 'one' possible solution to it. As I'm quite a high-level referee in my country, I would not handle this situation with a red card. I do believe others might.