A&H

Reds, v Cityzens

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The point I am making is, the current wording of the law means if you think the TAA was handball, no matter what you do, it could well be an error in law or at least a conflicting situation.
- Can't play on.
- Can't give a pen (??? or can you)
- Can't give a defending free kick ( defenders have to commit an offence to get a FK ??? )
God help us all
 
The Referee Store
[Swarbrick said:] "Referees in the Premier League have not tended to use the review screens. Will that change? "Quite possibly it will do. At the moment, the feedback we are getting back from the clubs, managers, players etc is they are quite comfortable in how we are operating."
He must be hearing from different people than I am. All I've seemed to hear recently is commentators, pundits, players and managers saying they wish the on-field referees would use the monitors, at least for the more contentious subjective decisions.
 
He must be hearing from different people than I am. All I've seemed to hear recently is commentators, pundits, players and managers saying they wish the on-field referees would use the monitors, at least for the more contentious subjective decisions.
Why is he covering it up? All any of us have to do with watch MOTD and realise that players and managers want use of the screens and don't know VAR in its current form
 
Why is he covering it up? All any of us have to do with watch MOTD and realise that players and managers want use of the screens and don't know VAR in its current form
I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but I make an exception here. There's clearly someone involved in the PL's implementation of VAR who wants it to fail, and they're skewing the experiment to help it fail.

I can't think of another explanation for them looking at a system that (broadly speaking) works in the US, works in Germany and worked in the WWC. The only problem for them is that they've made their fiddling of the experiment too obvious, so there's now a serious campaign in place to "give VAR a proper go" and get rid of the borderline illegal modifications that the FA have made to the system. If they'd done it properly and it had faile,d they might have been able to argue to get rid of it. By doing it wrong, they'll now at least have to do it properly before they can justify getting rid
 
I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories, but I make an exception here. There's clearly someone involved in the PL's implementation of VAR who wants it to fail, and they're skewing the experiment to help it fail.

I can't think of another explanation for them looking at a system that (broadly speaking) works in the US, works in Germany and worked in the WWC. The only problem for them is that they've made their fiddling of the experiment too obvious, so there's now a serious campaign in place to "give VAR a proper go" and get rid of the borderline illegal modifications that the FA have made to the system. If they'd done it properly and it had faile,d they might have been able to argue to get rid of it. By doing it wrong, they'll now at least have to do it properly before they can justify getting rid
The WC caused a forum furore and the WWC left us all bemused. VAR took over both tournaments in a damaging way. VAR is a good fit for the MLS because that league and culture does not put it to test. Whilst i do buy conspiracy theories, this one is of no interest. The PGMOL have gambled on changes to dreadful precedent but their ideas have only revealed another side of the same coin. Naturally, we won't agree on this, but that's just the way of things
 
The WC caused a forum furore and the WWC left us all bemused. VAR took over both tournaments in a damaging way. VAR is a good fit for the MLS because that league and culture does not put it to test. Whilst i do buy conspiracy theories, this one is of no interest. The PGMOL have gambled on changes to dreadful precedent but their ideas have only revealed another side of the same coin. Naturally, we won't agree on this, but that's just the way of things
I think the mens world cup may have had its controversy, but we came out of that with at least a bit of hope and a platform to build on. I'm confident most of us came out of that thinking 'OK, it had it's tricky moments but it's going in the right direction'. What they are adapting in the premier league is nothing like we witnessed during the WC. It's quite incredible how they've got to this stage really. I was completely in favour of VAR for the first few weeks (I still am with offsides BTW) and kept saying 'it's new, it'll get better' but that sort of feedback from the guys of the top gives me no hope whatsoever. If they are happy with VAR in it's current form then god help english football
 
I think the mens world cup may have had its controversy, but we came out of that with at least a bit of hope and a platform to build on. I'm confident most of us came out of that thinking 'OK, it had it's tricky moments but it's going in the right direction'. What they are adapting in the premier league is nothing like we witnessed during the WC. It's quite incredible how they've got to this stage really. I was completely in favour of VAR for the first few weeks (I still am with offsides BTW) and kept saying 'it's new, it'll get better' but that sort of feedback from the guys of the top gives me no hope whatsoever. If they are happy with VAR in it's current form then god help english football
One thing's for sure... The PGMOL have not improved on VAR. I find that both surprising and disappointing. It's left me dismayed, evidently
There's no way VAR will get pulled. I don't see any prospect of immanent improvements although i do think automation of offside will leave ARs redundant within 2 or 3 years
 
The PGMOL obviously value input from the Clubs. It is likely therefore that the Clubs don't want OFR. I would surmise that the Clubs are concerned about delay and further killing the game
The problems i have with OFR are
1 Its largely a facade
2 The added delay
3 Its has a pantomime look and feel
4 its for subjective decisions which cannot lose their subjectivity
So, there may be infrequent occasions when the R opposes the VAR recommendation, but this falls miles short of compensating for the downsides
 
One thing's for sure... The PGMOL have not improved on VAR. I find that both surprising and disappointing. It's left me dismayed, evidently
There's no way VAR will get pulled. I don't see any prospect of immanent improvements although i do think automation of offside will leave ARs redundant within 2 or 3 years

This for me isn't an issue with VAR as an idea. The idea of VAR is fantastic and could work providing its in the write hands and used effectively. They may have actually listened to football fans too much and tried to change the VAR process to match peoples complaints. For years fans/pundits etc have been complaining about issues with offside and no they are doing it to the millimetre. Fans/Pundits were concerned about the time to make a decision, they attempted to rectify this by not using pitchside monitors. But whilst that may sound like I'm blaming football fans, I'm not, as these are and have been genuine concerns for years which they are trying to resolve. However, it's failing and them not accepting that is awful. Just come out and say 'we tried and we failed, lets do something different'. The technology works, it's the processes in place which dont.
 
This for me isn't an issue with VAR as an idea. The idea of VAR is fantastic and could work providing its in the write hands and used effectively. They may have actually listened to football fans too much and tried to change the VAR process to match peoples complaints. For years fans/pundits etc have been complaining about issues with offside and no they are doing it to the millimetre. Fans/Pundits were concerned about the time to make a decision, they attempted to rectify this by not using pitchside monitors. But whilst that may sound like I'm blaming football fans, I'm not, as these are and have been genuine concerns for years which they are trying to resolve. However, it's failing and them not accepting that is awful. Just come out and say 'we tried and we failed, lets do something different'. The technology works, it's the processes in place which dont.
It seems like the EPL refs trust and respect each other too much. If the VAR felt empowered to call the very obvious errors we've seen, the OFR may not be such a hot potato. 'Tierney, mate 100% stick on pen'. That's the ticket!
Yes, this is the slippery slope, but the game needs prompt desicive action, not dithering at the sideline. The model of the R being in overall charge is possibly on its way out
 
It seems like the EPL refs trust and respect each other too much. If the VAR felt empowered to call the very obvious errors we've seen, the OFR may not be such a hot potato. 'Tierney, mate 100% stick on pen'. That's the ticket!
They manage to do exactly that in every other league and competition when VAR has been tried - and in most cases, the referees have been happy to accept the help, but also willing to stick with their original decision on occasion too. Again, your issue here is much more with the Frankenstein way in which it's been implemented in the PL rather than the concept as a whole
 
They manage to do exactly that in every other league and competition when VAR has been tried - and in most cases, the referees have been happy to accept the help, but also willing to stick with their original decision on occasion too. Again, your issue here is much more with the Frankenstein way in which it's been implemented in the PL rather than the concept as a whole
I've stated clearly that my issue extends beyond the EPL
 
How many real howlers, real howlers, where there a season? 5 or 6 max? That's what VAR should be for and given the infrequency, you can argue if that that even has merit is another debate. How many times did AR make a clear mistake on offside? I thought most offside calls at the highest level were really accurate. Now we spend 3 mins looking at centre of gravity and lines on a screen to get how many more calls right? Not many.

Personally the only way I see VAR working is that the referee decides when to use it, unless it is a clear howler. Referee says "I want a second look" uses the screen or voice in the ear says "you've made a massive error, we're overruling you"
 
Couldn’t they just trial this in the Championship before messing up the Prem?
The EFL chairman said last year that it won't be any time soon as some championship club stadiums aren't able to accommodate the technology due to the significant lack of funding in comparison to the premier league sides
 
Its all massively over engineered
R, ARs, VAR, AVARs, OFR and a hideously verbose protocol. The Simple Game!?
They won't lose face and do it, but I'd scrap it completely and start from scratch. There's still an urgent need for technology, but the game has always had an awful culture and it's that which ultimately holds it back in every respect
 
Its all massively over engineered
R, ARs, VAR, AVARs, OFR and a hideously verbose protocol. The Simple Game!?
They won't lose face and do it, but I'd scrap it completely and start from scratch. There's still an urgent need for technology, but the game has always had an awful culture and it's that which ultimately holds it back in every respect
Congratulations on the Forum Weekly Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness award @Big Cat
 
The WC caused a forum furore and the WWC left us all bemused. VAR took over both tournaments in a damaging way. VAR is a good fit for the MLS because that league and culture does not put it to test. Whilst i do buy conspiracy theories, this one is of no interest. The PGMOL have gambled on changes to dreadful precedent but their ideas have only revealed another side of the same coin. Naturally, we won't agree on this, but that's just the way of things

I think your MLS comment is a bit condescending. Many, many of us here in the US have strong reservations about VAR and would like it to go away. But MLS has certainly done a better job of implementing it than the the PL and has less controversy. The PL implementation almost looks designed to insure lots of coverage of the fiasco to keep the PL in the news more.

The PGMOL obviously value input from the Clubs. It is likely therefore that the Clubs don't want OFR. I would surmise that the Clubs are concerned about delay and further killing the game
The problems i have with OFR are
1 Its largely a facade
2 The added delay
3 Its has a pantomime look and feel
4 its for subjective decisions which cannot lose their subjectivity
So, there may be infrequent occasions when the R opposes the VAR recommendation, but this falls miles short of compensating for the downsides

Putting aside that I think the whole VAR model should be abolished, I completely disagree with you on OFR.
1. It's not a facade--it's putting judgment calls in the hands of the R instead of letting someone off the field substitute judgment for the R.
2. Well, once you have VAR, arguing about additional delay isn't very persuasive to me.
3. See one.
4. Of course it's for subjective opinions. But that's ultimately the problem with VAR in soccer--it is an outlier in letting subjective judgment calls be reviewed. Having only the VAR look more greatly suggests (falsely) that these are objective decisions. Keeping the R doing OFRs retains the fundamental soccer tradition of one referee who is ultimately responsible for all decisions.
 
I think your MLS comment is a bit condescending. Many, many of us here in the US have strong reservations about VAR and would like it to go away. But MLS has certainly done a better job of implementing it than the the PL and has less controversy. The PL implementation almost looks designed to insure lots of coverage of the fiasco to keep the PL in the news more.



Putting aside that I think the whole VAR model should be abolished, I completely disagree with you on OFR.
1. It's not a facade--it's putting judgment calls in the hands of the R instead of letting someone off the field substitute judgment for the R.
2. Well, once you have VAR, arguing about additional delay isn't very persuasive to me.
3. See one.
4. Of course it's for subjective opinions. But that's ultimately the problem with VAR in soccer--it is an outlier in letting subjective judgment calls be reviewed. Having only the VAR look more greatly suggests (falsely) that these are objective decisions. Keeping the R doing OFRs retains the fundamental soccer tradition of one referee who is ultimately responsible for all decisions.
So we only strongly disagree on point 1. which we wouldn't have to disagree on if VAR was scrapped... as we agree on
I don't honestly know what the culture & vibe is like with footy in the U.S. but it can't be anything like what it is here. No Trans-Atlantic offence intended
 
Radical left field idea here...

FA does it one way (no monitors, minutiae)
DFB et al do use monitors etc.

IFAB reviews the evidence garnered from these different methods and approaches at end of the season. Then issues formal instructions for a uniform approach next season.
 
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