The Ref Stop

Real Grassroot Footage

OldNavyRef

OldNavyRef

RefChat Addict
Level 5 Referee

This is certainly one of the most realistic / organic videos I have watched of grassroots football.

The referee is certainly not charging around the pitch and he is keeping his cards in his pocket. But this is exactly what my games often look/feel like.

If you don't do open age games, but you're thinking about it. This seems some great watching to see how you would do.
 
The Ref Stop
Watching another video he has done. He is doing well with his content.

In the last video I watched he says the following in the video description.

📞 I’ve since had a phone call from the FA telling me to STOP! ❌
 
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Body cams in general are not a good idea in grassroots IMO, especially if you are going to publish them on social media. It open up a very big can of worms.

I am with the FA on this one. Well until we have a proper workable protocol around the use of ref body cam in grassroots.
 
OldNavyRef said:
This is certainly one of the most realistic / organic videos I have watched of grassroots football.
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It is a really good insight into the experience of grassroots refereeing

Some might disagree with me here, not sure on the level of the referee, but this would be a good video of "how not to referee" for the refereeing course (not saying I am any better and I still have a lot to learn, but at the same time, I don't upload my performances to YouTube for scrutiny).
  • Majority of the game seems to be spent in the centre circle

  • When he does leave the centre circle, seems to end up in the penalty area D (which was regularly described as the danger zone on the course I did). (I watched 3 seperate videos where he constantly ends up in the D, including this being his starting position for corners).

  • In another video, he books a player for a late foul. His process is to chase the player into the box and just flash the yellow card (not following the LOTG procedure).

  • Fails to deal with dissent, as per LOTG / FA protocol.

  • Awarded a penalty, attacker said he dived, referee changed the decision, shook hands with the defender to apologise (as a player I would respect this, but just seems wrong from the perspective of a referee).
I am on the fence about whether body cam footage should be allowed (with appropriate guidance and policies in place). While I understand there are numerous reasons why the FA might oppose referees filming games (similarly, I played cricket with a wicketkeeper who was told to stop filming by the county), the footage provides valuable insights into amateur refereeing, what to expect and could potentially be used in disciplinary or legal proceedings. I also question why this should be treated differently from YouTube football teams like SE Dons, who film their games, or referees with YouTube channels (such as Refs World) that capture footage from the sidelines.
 
The Ginger Ref said:
I am on the fence about whether body cam footage should be allowed (with appropriate guidance and policies in place). While I understand there are numerous reasons why the FA might oppose referees filming games (similarly, I played cricket with a wicketkeeper who was told to stop filming by the county), the footage provides valuable insights into amateur refereeing, what to expect and could potentially be used in disciplinary or legal proceedings. I also question why this should be treated differently from YouTube football teams like SE Dons, who film their games, or referees with YouTube channels (such as Refs World) that capture footage from the sidelines.
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There is nothing stopping you, subject to the necessary consents, filming your games, using a veo device or similar.

The FA Oppose it, mainly, because it is contrary to law 5 which states:

"Referees and other ‘on-field’ match officials are prohibited from wearing jewellery or any other electronic equipment, including cameras."

(Emphasis mine)

The only exception to that is for those participating on the FA lead trial/pilot which has been agreed with IFAB.
 
In terms of advice for newer referees facing the situations in the OP video ... from an observer / coach POV (IMO)

15:48 - Needs a clear public word to reduce future disagreement escalating into dissent
16:05 - Caution for delaying the restart. Fine if he continues backing away but once he dangles a leg like that it's a simple YC
16:30 - Caution for Reckless Play. If player safety is our #1 priority, can't be just 'having a word' with challenges like that
17:02 - Caution - Adopting an aggressive attitude or dissent, take your pick! Totally OTT reaction to a simple obvious foul.

And if your whistle sounds like that, get a different one :)
 
Russell Jones said:
In terms of advice for newer referees facing the situations in the OP video ... from an observer / coach POV (IMO)

15:48 - Needs a clear public word to reduce future disagreement escalating into dissent
16:05 - Caution for delaying the restart. Fine if he continues backing away but once he dangles a leg like that it's a simple YC
16:30 - Caution for Reckless Play. If player safety is our #1 priority, can't be just 'having a word' with challenges like that
17:02 - Caution - Adopting an aggressive attitude or dissent, take your pick! Totally OTT reaction to a simple obvious foul.

And if your whistle sounds like that, get a different one :)
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Glad you picked up on the whistle as well.

He must moonlight as a train dispatcher
 
Russell Jones said:
In terms of advice for newer referees facing the situations in the OP video ... from an observer / coach POV (IMO)

15:48 - Needs a clear public word to reduce future disagreement escalating into dissent
16:05 - Caution for delaying the restart. Fine if he continues backing away but once he dangles a leg like that it's a simple YC
16:30 - Caution for Reckless Play. If player safety is our #1 priority, can't be just 'having a word' with challenges like that
17:02 - Caution - Adopting an aggressive attitude or dissent, take your pick! Totally OTT reaction to a simple obvious foul.

And if your whistle sounds like that, get a different one :)
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Yes, good comments.

I think we can also accentuate the positives.

The referee is really timely and proactive in explaining decisions. Little things, like immediately communicating tight onside/offside - without NARs - really helps the match.

The referee is calm and mostly clear with the players, and importantly at this level, interferes just enough to keep the players under control without unnecessarily interfering.

There are some improvement areas: diagonal movement, anticipating breakaways, avoid “final warning”, make verbal warnings more ceremonial at the right time, missed yellows (as listed above)…

But overall this the kind of conscientious and focused refereeing that grassroots football neeeds.
 
Russell Jones said:
In terms of advice for newer referees facing the situations in the OP video ... from an observer / coach POV (IMO)

15:48 - Needs a clear public word to reduce future disagreement escalating into dissent
16:05 - Caution for delaying the restart. Fine if he continues backing away but once he dangles a leg like that it's a simple YC
16:30 - Caution for Reckless Play. If player safety is our #1 priority, can't be just 'having a word' with challenges like that
17:02 - Caution - Adopting an aggressive attitude or dissent, take your pick! Totally OTT reaction to a simple obvious foul.

And if your whistle sounds like that, get a different one :)
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He's a competent grassroots referee because he speaks the same language as the players, shows empathy for the game and has a good rapport with the players. That trumps all of the Dev points you or I might give him in a MDC report IMO
The only reason I'd stop short of using the term 'an excellent grassroots ref', is his ignorance of the stepped approach (WRT dissent) and no sign of him ever using the Sin Bin
 
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Big Cat said:
He's a competent grassroots referee because he speaks the same language as the players, shows empathy for the game and has a good rapport with the players. That trumps all of the Dev points you or I might give him in a MDC report IMO
The only reason I'd stop short of using the term 'an excellent grassroots ref', is his ignorance of the stepped approach (WRT dissent) and no sign of him ever using the Sin Bin
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Overall I agree. There are plenty way worse than him and the teams are fortunate to have him. My only real 'competency' question would be around player safety (#1 priority at grassroots) as, if we work off the mantra 'what we don't punish, we encourage', I fear that too many injuries are likely with this more lenient approach
 
He is a good example of a level 7-5 referee that at present has no ambition of immediately going above level 5.

He is the majority of the refereeing community. Not cautioning and using language like "I gave them one, so this is your one" (or word to that affect). Also receiving clear dissent and using the of approach "if you swear at me like that again it'll be 10 minutes" (might be from another one of his videos).

He is certainly the reason why when a player gives me clear and obvious dissent and I sin bin them they look so surprised.

I think he keeps control of the game, but he certainly lets players 'leave their mark' on their opponent.

Not there to run 10km or get the perfect angle and not there to issue a second yellow. He referees with a lot of common sense and a good understanding of what is expected at the bottom of the footballing pyramid.

Reminds me of when you see brand new u18 y/o refs checking players undershirt colours in the pouring rain. I mean it is absolutely the right thing to be doing, but no one will thank you and it will be the first time that team has encountered it.

I had a manager do mind games to me a few weeks ago during the pre-game where he said "our ref last week was brilliant, he let the game play and he didn't go waving cards around every two seconds"

Same ref finished the season with a club score averaging 96.
 
Taking aside the facts that he shouldn't be wearing a webcam, and has missed cautions, his management of the game is excellent. The players trust him, he deals with the escalations, and everyone is happy at the end of the game. He's probably at the upper end of the scale of grass roots referees.

Given the way he is talking to players I suspect he may be a referee that was previously at L4 or above and has stepped down. It is very rare in my experience to hear grass roots referees use preventative communication like that with players, certainly not as effectively as he does.
 
RustyRef said:
Taking aside the facts that he shouldn't be wearing a webcam, and has missed cautions, his management of the game is excellent. The players trust him, he deals with the escalations, and everyone is happy at the end of the game. He's probably at the upper end of the scale of grass roots referees.

Given the way he is talking to players I suspect he may be a referee that was previously at L4 or above and has stepped down. It is very rare in my experience to hear grass roots referees use preventative communication like that with players, certainly not as effectively as he does.
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Having watched a few extra videos. I am extremely impressed with his communication skills. Not sure if he is helped by having a camera dangling in all their faces or he is hand picking his best games, but he does inject really well all the time. Just seems completely in control and the players trust him.

Doing all the soft things well, one of his videos he stops a corner and asks two lads "what the f*** are you two doing". Not recommended, but he pulled it off.
 
Russell Jones said:
My only real 'competency' question would be around player safety (#1 priority at grassroots) as, if we work off the mantra 'what we don't punish, we encourage
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Refereeing causes us to get brainwashed. Game has gone soft. Cracking down on general stupid cheating misbehaviour would have more impact on player safety cos they might actually have respect for one another and not engage in mass cons and VC....
There's nothing in that game which caught my eye and County Refs are always less likely to be officious with cards. Yes, I'd ref it more in line with our expectations and dish some C1/C2's out, but this chap is otherwise just what the game needs at that level

Anyway, we're on the same page overall
 
Big Cat said:
Refereeing causes us to get brainwashed. Game has gone soft. Cracking down on general stupid cheating misbehaviour would have more impact on player safety cos they might actually have respect for one another and not engage in mass cons and VC....
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I see WAY more players get injured through reckless / excessive force tackles than I do from VC. And mass cons are generally just 'handbags' on a larger scale!! So calling fouls "properly" is a biggie for me.
That said, you know well that I'm also a big fan of cracking down on the stupid cheating misbehaviour ... but that's more because I want to return us (closer) to the 'Beautiful Game' than it is to keep players safe.
 
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Russell Jones said:
I see WAY more players get injured through reckless / excessive force tackles than I do from VC
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You know what? I was thinking about this earlier, and in 35 years of playing/reffing, the serious injuries I've bore witness to (guessing about 10) have all been accidents (careless). Maybe that's too far fetched to be true, some of them must've been reckless, but back then I didn't care about such things. I honestly can't remember seeing SFP and a causal trip to the hospital (not talking TV, on which we see all the 'highlights')

I've seen many instances of VC which had their origins in the nonsense culture the game encourages. I'd argue the majority of VC stems from earlier 'interactions' of a mis-behavioural nature. VC doesn't usually spawn out of the blue. It's usually a symptom of a behavioural disease that spreads throughout the game prior to the event. Anyway, I know I don't have to tell you any of this. Just thinking out loud. But I am downplaying the relative significance of 'getting stuck in'
 
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Big Cat said:
You know what? I was thinking about this earlier, and in 35 years of playing/reffing, the serious injuries I've bore witness to (guessing about 10) have all been accidents (careless). Maybe that's too far fetched to be true, some of them must've been reckless, but back then I didn't care about such things. I honestly can't remember seeing SFP and a causal trip to the hospital (not talking TV, on which we see all the 'highlights')

I've seen many instances of VC which had their origins in the nonsense culture the game encourages. I'd argue the majority of VC stems from earlier 'interactions' of a mis-behavioural nature. VC doesn't usually spawn out of the blue. It's usually a symptom of a behavioural disease that spreads throughout the game prior to the event. Anyway, I know I don't have to tell you any of this. Just thinking out loud. But I am downplaying the relative significance of 'getting stuck in'
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Caveat that though that challenges 35 years ago, or even 15 years ago, that were deemed an accident might well be SFP these days.
 
RustyRef said:
Caveat that though that challenges 35 years ago, or even 15 years ago, that were deemed an accident might well be SFP these days.
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The thumb nail from the YouTube video above looks a red hahaa not in grassroots, but with var, studs on ankle, you should be gone
 
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