PSG vs Istanbul

[Kes]

Are black people trying to make the concept of identifying someone based on their skin colour a major issue? Something that results in pushback and tension? You're absolutely right they are, that's literally the entire point of BLM - well done identifying that. If you could just push through and work out why BLM thinks making that approach feel problematic is worthwhile, you'll have got your head around the whole concept!

BLM are a Marxist anarchist organisation. Based on the political stuff they've "pushed" since the Floyd incident, we now have footballers kneeling down before football matches with clenched fists in the air. We now also have instances like the other night at PSG where "manufactured outrage" has become acceptable and the norm.
Irrespective of however you arrive at the notion that some black bloke killed in the USA by thug coppers translates to us in the UK suddenly having a problem with racism (I really can't be bothered to get in to that - besides which it's not an appropriate subject for this forum) the fact is that the more this madness is pandered to in sport, the worse it will become.

I'll say it again - "politics" and sport do not (and should not) mix.

 

[GraemeS]

BLM are a Marxist anarchist organisation. Based on the political stuff they've "pushed" since the Floyd incident, we now have footballers kneeling down before football matches with clenched fists in the air. We now also have instances like the other night at PSG where "manufactured outrage" has become acceptable and the norm.
Irrespective of however you arrive at the notion that some black bloke killed in the USA by thug coppers translates to us in the UK suddenly having a problem with racism (I really can't be bothered to get in to that - besides which it's not an appropriate subject for this forum) the fact is that the more this madness is pandered to in sport, the worse it will become.

I'll say it again - "politics" and sport do not (and should not) mix.

Let's not get back into the poppy debate. Politics and sport have always been closely linked - the only reason you have an issue with kneeling is because you don't want this kind of politics in your sport.

 

[Kes]

Let's not get back into the poppy debate. Politics and sport have always been closely linked - the only reason you have an issue with kneeling is because you don't want this kind of politics in your sport.

Before this thread gets curtailed by one of the Moderators on here, I'll simply respond by saying that your completely blinkered "wokeness" is what compels you to post such rubbish. I don't want any kind of politics in sport full stop. Time for you to go back on my ignore list fella ...

 

[GraemeS]

Before this thread gets curtailed by one of the Moderators on here, I'll simply respond by saying that your completely blinkered "wokeness" is what compels you to post such rubbish. I don't want any kind of politics in sport full stop. Time for you to go back on my ignore list fella ...

Haha, the idea that being woke is an insult constantly baffles me. Oh no, I'm aware of injustices and do what I can to try and disrupt them, how terrible.....

I'll repeat: Politics and sport have always been linked. Jesse Owens. Muhammed Ali. The Russian Olympic Boycott in the 80's. Poppies. Minutes silences for all sorts of causes and non-sporting figures. And even in the last month - Marcus Rashford using his sporting position to affect the political landscape. Pretending that all of those are fine and BLM is somehow abhorrent and out of place is blinkered at best.

 

[one]

This is now becoming a political debate.

Two thing, we would prob never know if the moment was truly racist and we would never know if the manager was truly offended. However....

How often do we praise a coach for telling his defender who claims a fair tackle for a pen "don't give the ref a decision to make". Doesn't the same apply here? The 4O should not have given the manager an opportunity to blow this up.

 

[GraemeS]

This is now becoming a political debate.

Two thing, we would prob never know if the moment was truly racist and we would never know if the manager was truly offended. However....

How often do we praise a coach for telling his defender who claims a fair tackle for a pen "don't give the ref a decision to make". Doesn't the same apply here? The 4O should not have given the manager an opportunity to blow this up.

It became a political debate when people started condemning the manager for calling out what he perceived to be a racist comment. The fact it took until the 4th page to get remotely heated is a borderline miracle!

 

[QuaverRef]

The fact you don't see the connection between those two statements is the concerning bit. Black people have a long and storied history where their skin colour has been all that is required to trigger serious discrimination. Moving away from seeing that as a primary characteristic unless strictly necessary is clearly a benefit to reducing that discrimination.

Identifying somebody by the colour of their skin is not discrimination.
Using the colour of their skin as a way to make yourself feel superior and/or treat differently is discrimination

that’s the difference

 

[Mr Dean]

Why do these types of threads always get hijacked by intolerant posters? This thread is about an isolated incident and has nothing to do with kneeling or any anti-discrimination organisations. If you think sport and politics shouldn't mix, it's probably a good idea to stop bringing up politics in a sports-related forum.

 

[GraemeS]

Identifying somebody by the colour of their skin is not discrimination.
Using the colour of their skin as a way to make yourself feel superior and/or treat differently is discrimination

that’s the difference

And we're talking here about a context where a 4th official in a position of authority has chosen to request a punishment for someone by unnecessarily referencing their skin colour. They could have pointed and said "him". They could have referenced his physical position on the bench. And there's every chance that he knew his job title or name and could have used those as identifiers.

Instead, a white authority figure chose to instruct another white authority figure to punish the black man. As a white man myself, there is not a chance in hell that I would even think of trying to condemn him for reacting to that. Maybe he's justified, maybe it's a misunderstanding and he's reacted in the heat of the moment. There will be an investigation and we'll find out in due time. But the idea that I would wade in and tell that black man to stop being so sensitive is so far from appropriate that it wouldn't even occur to me as a possibility had I not opened this thread.

 

[steakbridie]

Put it this way if the 4O wants Ibrahimovic sent off from the bench and identifies him as the guy with a big nose, he has to be prepared for a sh!tstorm.

When I saw Ibrahimovic on the bench last week against Celtic he was wearing a big jacket and hat so not much of his face was visible. If he's animated in the technical area along with others wearing the same it might be the only identifying feature - though better if the 4O keeps that in his head and tries to point him out.

Back to the PSG game - the Romanian journalist I link to on page 1 has gone through the audio. According to him it was actually the nearside AR who said "negru" which could make more sense as he would be further away trying to identify the offender.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1336858827468181505

Also a suggestion that the refs were called gypsies

https://twitter.com/x/status/1336699603857641474

- let's hope the investigation gets to the bottom of everything that went on from both sides.

 

[Eddie]

Haha, the idea that being woke is an insult constantly baffles me. Oh no, I'm aware of injustices and do what I can to try and disrupt them, how terrible.....

I'll repeat: Politics and sport have always been linked. Jesse Owens. Muhammed Ali. The Russian Olympic Boycott in the 80's. Poppies. Minutes silences for all sorts of causes and non-sporting figures. And even in the last month - Marcus Rashford using his sporting position to affect the political landscape. Pretending that all of those are fine and BLM is somehow abhorrent and out of place is blinkered at best.

Since the thread has already gone past the point of no return I’ll raise my objection now to the poppy, a symbol of remembrance for ALL who died in service to this country, being identified as political.

It being brandished as such is deeply offensive notion, manufactured by far left extremists, in an attempt to have a ‘legitimate’ platform to spout their anti-British bile.

 

[GraemeS]

Since the thread has already gone past the point of no return I’ll raise my objection now to the poppy, a symbol of remembrance for ALL who died in service to this country, being identified as political.

It being brandished as such is deeply offensive notion, manufactured by far left extremists, in an attempt to have a ‘legitimate’ platform to spout their anti-British bile.

Tell that to the people who died in wars against British forces that they consider unjust.

This is a debate we've done before on here. You can either accept the meaning intended by the poppy - in which case it is only fair to accept the meaning also intended by BLM. Or you can project the meaning you perceive onto BLM - in which case we have to consider the perception of the poppy to those with a reason to be wary of the British military. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Ref1981]

Okay guess I’ll share my opinion on this matter as well. Firstly I have to point out that the official investigation is still in the progress so we should not label anyone racist at this point (and I mean both sides of the story). Secondly I sincerely hope that in case of racism having occurred it is condemned by each and everyone. Thirdly, the words used by the 4O were stupid considering the era we live in and he should have not used skin color as a defining feature (although usage of those words was understandable in the situation, it still was not wise).

That being said what I personally think is the biggest issue in this incident and the racism discussion as a whole is the fact that many “racist incidents” simply do not fit into the idea and definition of racism. At least what I and many people I have been talking have been taught. Following is a definition of racism by Oxford Languages.

“prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. “

Was what the 4O did prejudice, discrimination or antagonism against the people with darker pigmentation (I tried to Google how to say Black without saying black but didn’t find anything sensible so hopefully you understand (not trying to offend anyone)). It clearly is not as he used “Bla*k” as a identifying feature, same way as dark hair, beard, height etc..

Here we come to the issue I am facing with a lot of discussion from the topic. Some people seem to think that racism is racism if someone thinks its racism (in this case the person who the message was intended, though as, for example, in the recent Cavani case it were complete outsiders who took it as racism). The problem being, especially in modern climate were racist are pretty much outcasted by society, the risk of message not intended as racist being perceived as racist. As happened in the Cavani case. So a wrong choice of words, wrong action or just being at the wrong place at the wrong time could mean that your entire life is ****ed. Especially considering that “trial by social media” is very much a thing nowdays and there has to be no investigation or verdict by any authorities and you still have a mark of a racist for the rest of your life.

I want to highlight once more that I don’t support racism on any level and I think (as everyone should) that everyone should and is equal regardless of their religion, sex, skin color etc. We should just have a better, clearer and universally accepted definition of racism and better, more civilized, ways to get justice if one faces it.

 

[QuaverRef]

And we're talking here about a context where a 4th official in a position of authority has chosen to request a punishment for someone by unnecessarily referencing their skin colour. They could have pointed and said "him". They could have referenced his physical position on the bench. And there's every chance that he knew his job title or name and could have used those as identifiers.

Instead, a white authority figure chose to instruct another white authority figure to punish the black man. As a white man myself, there is not a chance in hell that I would even think of trying to condemn him for reacting to that. Maybe he's justified, maybe it's a misunderstanding and he's reacted in the heat of the moment. There will be an investigation and we'll find out in due time. But the idea that I would wade in and tell that black man to stop being so sensitive is so far from appropriate that it wouldn't even occur to me as a possibility had I not opened this thread.

It's totally unprofessional, I agree. But to say the line 'a white authority figure chose to instruct another white authority figure to punish a black man' is just an awful way to describe one person having to point somebody out of a crowd. Wording it that way makes it sound as if he's targetting somebody who is black, for being black which is simply not the case. There's a HUGE line between carding somebody who happens to be black, and carding somebody because they are black.

During games, Sian Massey quite often gets pointed out as being a female AR at premier league level, if somebody doesn't know her name would it be sexist to describe her as female? Or is it only an issue if somebody is to be 'punished'?

 

[RustyRef]

Let's keep politics and your own political views out of this please or it will be closed.

What the 4th official said, or the assistant as it now appears to be the case, certainly falls into the "bad practice" category. Was he intentionally being racist, in my personal opinion no he wasn't but you cannot identify a person by their colour in this current day and age. I have to do mandatory diversity and inclusion training and that is very clearly covered in there, and if I did it in the work environment I would likely face disciplinary action. Whilst your parents may have told you is is rude to point, that is probably the safest way to prevent yourself getting into trouble.

What of course makes it worse here is the Romanian word for black is negru, even more so as the u is pronounced as an o. Although that could have also been the case if the match officials were Spanish, Portugese, Italian, etc as there is a similar issue in those languages.

As an aside, if it was the assistant rather than the 4th official then that would almost certainly mean the end of Hategan's Euro 2020/21 ambitions, which is a pity as he is a very highly thought of referee. Just goes to show how one accidental, not fully thought out, action can have wide ranging consequences.

 

[QuaverRef]

Anyone else notice how Cavani posts the same word on social media 2 weeks ago, apologies and everyone puts it down to a language barrier, but a 4th official does the same and he’s hung out to dry, players where anti racism shirts and it’s all over the media? Who’d a ref, aye?

 

[es1]

Anyone else notice how Cavani posts the same word on social media 2 weeks ago, apologies and everyone puts it down to a language barrier, but a 4th official does the same and he’s hung out to dry, players where anti racism shirts and it’s all over the media? Who’d a ref, aye?

Think FA are still investigating that, very much expecting a similar result to bernado Silva last season (1 game ban)

 

[GraemeS]

Think FA are still investigating that, very much expecting a similar result to bernado Silva last season (1 game ban)

I think you can expect more than that to be honest. I'm fairly sure I read something in the wake of the Silva incident where it was agreed that the punishment options available at the time were clearly insufficient, so they increased them. If found guilty of the same offense, I think he'll be lucky to get away with only 3 matches banned.

 

[one]

Was he intentionally being racist, in my personal opinion no he wasn't

I am also of the same opinion but my fear is that this could have been passive racism. It would be very hard to prove either way. Even an official investigation is going to rely on opinions. And the outcome would have an element of politics in it, e.g, what outcome is best for UEFA.

 

[Tealeaf]

This is an emotive issue. That much is clear but please refrain from deliberately inflaming other posters and consider carefully what you post.

Warnings have been issued and points applied.