players equipment

[zarathustra]

Thanks for the reply and what you say may well apply to some, but not to me. I'm coming from the angles I posted in my reply to you.

Surely whole point of the PGMOL officials being contracted to attend RA meetings etc is so that we can learn from them, if its a case of 'Do what I say, not what I do' then I accept that, but think you'll agree that can be a little confusing/annoying?

Possibly, but I don't remember the subject of jewelry checks ever coming up in any of the events I've been to with PGMOL officials.

And even if they did say to let players wear rings I wouldnt, because I know what the laws of the game say, and what is required of me as a referee.

 

[JamesL]

I think people forget that once upon a time our elite officials sat where we sit at these very meetings.
The game is different at that level and we work under the directions. Elite from that of the PGMOL (influenced by PL or not) and then under national or local FA depending on level of game/official.
So, the summary of what I am trying to say is that there is a point of our elite members attending and sharing their experience, as I say again, they have been on the same pathway as we are on at some earlier point in their career.

 

[Mintyref]

I think people forget that once upon a time our elite officials sat where we sit at these very meetings.
The game is different at that level and we work under the directions. Elite from that of the PGMOL (influenced by PL or not) and then under national or local FA depending on level of game/official.
So, the summary of what I am trying to say is that there is a point of our elite members attending and sharing their experience, as I say again, they have been on the same pathway as we are on at some earlier point in their career.

But at what point in accepting the Premier League "shilling" do they have to forget all the laws they had to learn to control Dog and Duck v The King's Head elevens on an early Sunday morning kick off?

 

[Big Cat]

I think people forget that once upon a time our elite officials sat where we sit at these very meetings.
The game is different at that level and we work under the directions. Elite from that of the PGMOL (influenced by PL or not) and then under national or local FA depending on level of game/official.
So, the summary of what I am trying to say is that there is a point of our elite members attending and sharing their experience, as I say again, they have been on the same pathway as we are on at some earlier point in their career.

Can you just summarise that summary for me, as you lost me somewhere in there!

 

[JamesL]

Can you just summarise that summary for me, as you lost me somewhere in there!

The point was made that not much point in elite refs attending. There is a point as many people are aspiring to work towards that level. No one gets there without having first been at the lower end of the game. They've been there and worn the shirt so their experience and advice is useful even if they aren't particularly doing things the way we might, or they did when at our levels.

 

[JamesL]

But at what point in accepting the Premier League "shilling" do they have to forget all the laws they had to learn to control Dog and Duck v The King's Head elevens on an early Sunday morning kick off?

Not saying its right. But money talks unfortunately.
Ultimately the PL are selling a product, which like it or not our elite referees are part of that product and, I guess, they have some clout as to what is and is not acceptable in terms of behaviour from players.
I am sure of the refs had a problem with it they could always give it up...

 

[PinnerPaul]

Think some of you are missing the point, possibly because I wasn't clear enough.

I do get that the game at different levels is of course different. But what about a bit of explanation or acknowledgment of that from the top and on here?

On such a good discussion board as this, given we are all (mostly) experienced referees, how about a bit of explanation or discussion rather than

'Don't worry about it sonny, its the PL, on you go' attitude?

Years ago David Elleray DID explain to an RA meeting why he thought top refs didn't punish dissent and OFFINABUS as we should/do at lower levels - now you might not agree with it all and I did some parts and didn't others - but at least it WAS an explanation.

When I went to one recently PL ref said he would not ref in the PL again this season if he EVER invoked the 6 second rule - even with my low grade English A level I recognise that as a consequence of his action not an explanation!

Same on here I KNOW its the PL, so don't need to be told that everytime one of these questions come up.

I respect Rusty at least trying to explain the ring thing, might not agree and seen it disproved as above but at least its a discussion/explanation.

Just repeating 'Its the PL' each time doesn't do this board justice.

Rant over, God I need a few games to take up my time!

 

[JamesL]

Think some of you are missing the point, possibly because I wasn't clear enough.

I do get that the game at different levels is of course different. But what about a bit of explanation or acknowledgment of that from the top and on here?

On such a good discussion board as this, given we are all (mostly) experienced referees, how about a bit of explanation or discussion rather than

'Don't worry about it sonny, its the PL, on you go' attitude?

Years ago David Elleray DID explain to an RA meeting why he thought top refs didn't punish dissent and OFFINABUS as we should/do at lower levels - now you might not agree with it all and I did some parts and didn't others - but at least it WAS an explanation.

When I went to one recently PL ref said he would not ref in the PL again this season if he EVER invoked the 6 second rule - even with my low grade English A level I recognise that as a consequence of his action not an explanation!

Same on here I KNOW its the PL, so don't need to be told that everytime one of these questions come up.

I respect Rusty at least trying to explain the ring thing, might not agree and seen it disproved as above but at least its a discussion/explanation.

Just repeating 'Its the PL' each time doesn't do this board justice.

Rant over, God I need a few games to take up my time!

That wasnt really my point, but if that's what you took from what I said, so be it.
Unfortunately, the explanation is that moeny talks.
PL are selling a product, for billions of pounds, and the buyers of said product are investing in the sport, to make billions of pounds. That product is worth less with Wayne Rooney Sent off every week, because he is (was) the star attraction (I chose wayne Rooney as I believe i read somehwere a referee admit he was told not to send him off). Millions tune in to see these players. If they aren't playing less and less tune in, devaluing the product.
It's less than ideal for us at the lower end of the game, but at the end of the day we have an arsenal afforded to us in the laws of the game, its down to us as individuals to apply it.
No one is ever going to come out and tell you this from the top, because let's face it, it's poor reasoning for blatant ignorance of the laws of the game. But then, we are all guilty of it, as unless you're refereeing futsal who here is counting to six and blowing every time the keeper holds the ball more than six seconds... Coz I ain't and I see lots of other referees, of all levels a through my 8-9 years as a referee doing the same. In fact, I have never once seen a referee penalise it.

 

[GraemeS]

That wasnt really my point, but if that's what you took from what I said, so be it.
Unfortunately, the explanation is that moeny talks.
PL are selling a product, for billions of pounds, and the buyers of said product are investing in the sport, to make billions of pounds. That product is worth less with Wayne Rooney Sent off every week, because he is (was) the star attraction (I chose wayne Rooney as I believe i read somehwere a referee admit he was told not to send him off). Millions tune in to see these players. If they aren't playing less and less tune in, devaluing the product.
It's less than ideal for us at the lower end of the game, but at the end of the day we have an arsenal afforded to us in the laws of the game, its down to us as individuals to apply it.
No one is ever going to come out and tell you this from the top, because let's face it, it's poor reasoning for blatant ignorance of the laws of the game. But then, we are all guilty of it, as unless you're refereeing futsal who here is counting to six and blowing every time the keeper holds the ball more than six seconds... Coz I ain't and I see lots of other referees, of all levels a through my 8-9 years as a referee doing the same. In fact, I have never once seen a referee penalise it.

I have heard this argument and while it may well be prevailing wisdom around the PGMOL, I don't know how much truth there is in it. As someone who has never held Everton or Man U in particularly high regard, the one way to guarantee I do want to watch those matches would be if I knew Rooney was getting sent off!

 

[PinnerPaul]

That wasnt really my point, but if that's what you took from what I said, so be it.
Unfortunately, the explanation is that moeny talks.
PL are selling a product, for billions of pounds, and the buyers of said product are investing in the sport, to make billions of pounds. That product is worth less with Wayne Rooney Sent off every week, because he is (was) the star attraction (I chose wayne Rooney as I believe i read somehwere a referee admit he was told not to send him off). Millions tune in to see these players. If they aren't playing less and less tune in, devaluing the product.
It's less than ideal for us at the lower end of the game, but at the end of the day we have an arsenal afforded to us in the laws of the game, its down to us as individuals to apply it.
No one is ever going to come out and tell you this from the top, because let's face it, it's poor reasoning for blatant ignorance of the laws of the game. But then, we are all guilty of it, as unless you're refereeing futsal who here is counting to six and blowing every time the keeper holds the ball more than six seconds... Coz I ain't and I see lots of other referees, of all levels a through my 8-9 years as a referee doing the same. In fact, I have never once seen a referee penalise it.

Cheers James and my comments not really aimed at you and what you just posted is exactly what I was after - a sensible discussion.

Understand about offinabus, incidentally that wasn't one of Mr E's explanations!, but of course that reasoning doesn't cover the 6 second rule, refs wearing black at Old Trafford when Mr de Gea does EVERY week etc etc.

Of course there isn't ONE magic answer, but to discuss these things is what this board should be about - it might not matter on ANY game that GK takes more than 6 seconds as you say, but the inconsistency there of course is that while many, including me, will agree with you, most on here think the jewellery issue shouldn't be ignored.

Just think it helps if we discuss then rather than applying the catch all argument of 'Its the PL' - if its not relevant to you as a ref what the PL does, then fine, don't get involved, but its the inference that none of us should ever query what they do that bugs me.

Back to a less inflammatory example perhaps - what do you think of Trarore's dreadlocks , or specifically what look like about half a dozen or so plastic/ceramic? balls on the end of them that look like a safety issue to me?

 

[JamesL]

Cheers James and my comments not really aimed at you and what you just posted is exactly what I was after - a sensible discussion.

Understand about offinabus, incidentally that wasn't one of Mr E's explanations!, but of course that reasoning doesn't cover the 6 second rule, refs wearing black at Old Trafford when Mr de Gea does EVERY week etc etc.

Of course there isn't ONE magic answer, but to discuss these things is what this board should be about - it might not matter on ANY game that GK takes more than 6 seconds as you say, but the inconsistency there of course is that while many, including me, will agree with you, most on here think the jewellery issue shouldn't be ignored.

Just think it helps if we discuss then rather than applying the catch all argument of 'Its the PL' - if its not relevant to you as a ref what the PL does, then fine, don't get involved, but its the inference that none of us should ever query what they do that bugs me.

Back to a less inflammatory example perhaps - what do you think of Trarore's dreadlocks , or specifically what look like about half a dozen or so plastic/ceramic? balls on the end of them that look like a safety issue to me?

Haven't seen them but I recall Wan Bissaka had similar last season think I said then that I wouldn't allow it, so presume my answer would be the same (probably worse now gievn the number of fresh cuts players returned with despite being in a pandemic and most hairdressers being unable to work).
I could harp on about my theory that alot of decisions like this are made around money, and why referees would be hard pressed to be selected for being so "pedantic" (please note the sarcasm) but I won't bore you with that again .
Tbh I have gone off top level football lately, not least as my team aren't doing very well of late, but it's just a different game, and I prefer referring at the level I am at. Can't wait to be back

 

[Big Cat]

I've said similar many times before, but football is dreadfully officiated, from top-to-bottom. I find it cringe-worthy to refer to the rules as laws, not least because the book is such a disjointed, inconsistent mess. Only WWF is refereed worse than soccer, although the former is done more consistently
The fact that so many rules are ignored or 'managed', testifies that I'm right. Then there's the nauseating commercial influence & disgust of FIFA/VAR

One might wonder why I bother!!!
Well, I formerly loved the game and grew up with it in my blood. Paradoxically, I get satisfaction out of refereeing because all of the above make the hobby so challenging and interesting. If the players didn't have a personality transplant on crossing the white line and the game wasn't in such a mess, I'm not sure I'd be so thrilled to survive each game with some sort of reputation (not to mention my teeth) in tact!

 

[Justylove]

I have heard this argument and while it may well be prevailing wisdom around the PGMOL, I don't know how much truth there is in it. As someone who has never held Everton or Man U in particularly high regard, the one way to guarantee I do want to watch those matches would be if I knew Rooney was getting sent off!

I heard about when Tim Cahill got sent off for calling the Graham Poll (I think) a"F'ing Cheating C**t" Everton appealed it and it got overturned. Poll got sat out for a month and Cahill played the next game.

It's a disincentive for refs to apply some of the laws at the top level.

 

[Ben448844]

I've never had a problem getting players to take their jewelry off.

And even when people complain I've never heard anyone say "ohh such and such wore his on match of the day last night".

Women's Northern Premier League match last September (I'm senior AR). Ref asks me to bang on the changing room door of the home team as they're running late and check their jewellery as they leave the changing rooms, standard stuff. Every single player had jewellrey on, most had multiple items on.

Choice was to let them go out with jewellrey on (which obviously I wouldn't allow) or kick off 10 mins late. Lesson learnt by all that day

 

[GraemeS]

I've said similar many times before, but football is dreadfully officiated, from top-to-bottom. I find it cringe-worthy to refer to the rules as laws, not least because the book is such a disjointed, inconsistent mess. Only WWF is refereed worse than soccer, although the former is done more consistently
The fact that so many rules are ignored or 'managed', testifies that I'm right. Then there's the nauseating commercial influence & disgust of FIFA/VAR

One might wonder why I bother!!!
Well, I formerly loved the game and grew up with it in my blood. Paradoxically, I get satisfaction out of refereeing because all of the above make the hobby so challenging and interesting. If the players didn't have a personality transplant on crossing the white line and the game wasn't in such a mess, I'm not sure I'd be so thrilled to survive each game with some sort of reputation (not to mention my teeth) in tact!

But you end up here in a constant cycle. I think you can make a case that making up the 113 English PL players this season, you probably have a significant % of the best naturally talented English football players - because the system is so geared towards finding those with natural talent and creating opportunities for them to display it and move on up. I would say there's a fairly good chance that if you were to magically pick out the 300 most naturally football talented English men between 18-30, you'd sweep up at least 100 of those 113.

Now apply that logic to officials. I would guess ~50 officials in the PL this season, so do we think we've plucked them out from the ~150 most naturally talented referees out there? Not a chance IMO, most of those 150 would never have even thought to try and pick up a whistle, refereeing just isn't something that looks fun to do from the outside. And even those who do pick up a whistle find so many obstacles in their way - even for someone fairly dedicated it will take 4 or 5 seasons to make L4, at which point you're asked to give up most of your evenings and weekends to run lines hours drive from your house for very little compensation. Potentially for multiple seasons if you happen to run into an observer who has a dislike of something you do, or keep getting observed on quiet games with nothing to do.

Add in the fact that whenever there are gaps in talent, the PL just imports talented players from elsewhere. This is not an option for referees - don't forget that one of the best and most well-respected referees in the southern hemisphere joined us last season, and the assumption was that English officials are so exceptional, the best standard he could possibly be at was Championship. On the other hand, Chelsea have just signed Werner and would hope for him to be involved in the majority of their title challenge next season. And that;s a pretty routine occurrence.

If the PL wants better referees, they need to expand the talent pool of people who try it, same as they have successfully done with players. To do that they have to make refereeing a more attractive proposition, both to try and to progress within. And step 1 of doing that is trying to reduce the impression that the best possible outcome of a refereeing career is getting to be yelled at by the likes of Rooney without any power to do something about it.

 

[one]

Regarding the earlier discussion on PL players not having rings under tape vs having ring under tape, I am sure they both happen. Just because we have seen one doesn't mean the other is not true.

A tape representing a ring, even though I don't think it is a safety issue, strictly speaking it should not be allowed as it should count as jewelry. Many items worn are considered as jewelry which are only symbolic and have no safety concerns. A rubber band is not allowed, a 'representative' tape around the finger should be in the same category (strictly speaking).

Having said that I allow simple hairbands around the wrist for those with long hair and consider them safety equipment. Even if the hair is already tied the spare band can be used if the first one comes off during the game.

The discussion of why the top level refs ignore some laws, I don't think they are ever told to do it. Its is more about self interest or self preservation. It is because they know if they applied it there is a possibility they may loose their job. However I think ignoring a shiny ring pushes the boundaries of that.

 

[Kes]

Not saying its right. But money talks unfortunately.
Ultimately the PL are selling a product, which like it or not our elite referees are part of that product and, I guess, they have some clout as to what is and is not acceptable in terms of behaviour from players.
I am sure of the refs had a problem with it they could always give it up...

Yep. He who pays the piper calls the tune. ..

 

[one]

If a player is wearing or using unauthorised/dangerous equipment or jewellery, the referee must order the player to:
- remove the item
- leave the field of play at the next stoppage if the player is unable or unwilling to comply.
A player who refuses to comply or wears the item again must be cautioned.

Where do you go if they still refuse to remove the item or leave the pitch? Is it then a 2nd yellow for the same offence or could their refusal be seen as dissent?

I don't believe this was answered clearly.
This law says they must be cautioned but it does not say the which of the cautionable offences. I believe the caution is for dissent in the first place. For me there is a grey area if you can give them a second caution for the same reason but i would. However after the first caution I would explain that if they continue not to comply i will give them a second caution and a send off. If they refuse to leave after the send off, i would abandon the game because a sent off player refused to leave the field of play.

If you have sin-bin, that doesn't change things much but the process will be a bit different. After the first caution it is bin time (regardless of jewelry coming off or not) . If they refuse to leave to the bin then a second caution for dissent (no grey area this time) and abandon.

 

[PinnerPaul]

Haven't seen them but I recall Wan Bissaka had similar last season think I said then that I wouldn't allow it, so presume my answer would be the same (probably worse now gievn the number of fresh cuts players returned with despite being in a pandemic and most hairdressers being unable to work).
I could harp on about my theory that alot of decisions like this are made around money, and why referees would be hard pressed to be selected for being so "pedantic" (please note the sarcasm) but I won't bore you with that again .
Tbh I have gone off top level football lately, not least as my team aren't doing very well of late, but it's just a different game, and I prefer referring at the level I am at. Can't wait to be back

Cheers James. Well 'snap' on my team not doing very well. I don't have Sky/BT so have been interested to see a number of PL matches in full for the first time since the debacle that were the 3 seasons in the PL for a certain team!

Think we all agree with that last line!

 

[andy75]

I don't believe this was answered clearly.
This law says they must be cautioned but it does not say the which of the cautionable offences. I believe the caution is for dissent in the first place. For me there is a grey area if you can give them a second caution for the same reason but i would. However after the first caution I would explain that if they continue not to comply i will give them a second caution and a send off. If they refuse to leave after the send off, i would abandon the game because a sent off player refused to leave the field of play.

If you have sin-bin, that doesn't change things much but the process will be a bit different. After the first caution it is bin time (regardless of jewelry coming off or not) . If they refuse to leave to the bin then a second caution for dissent (no grey area this time) and abandon.

Thanks @one