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Player-managers

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RobOda

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Level 3 Referee
I just feel like double checking on somethings;

With the team official cautions/dismissals now in force, when we have a player-manager or player-coach who is on the bench, am I correct in assuming that if he commits an offence we are to caution/dismiss in their capacity as team official, which may be a more serious sanction?


And for a really stupid thought: If a player-manager is cautioned as a team official, it still applies when he comes on as a player; ergo, he's already on a caution?
 
The Ref Stop
RobOda said:
I just feel like double checking on somethings;

With the team official cautions/dismissals now in force, when we have a player-manager or player-coach who is on the bench, am I correct in assuming that if he commits an offence we are to caution/dismiss in their capacity as team official, which may be a more serious sanction?


And for a really stupid thought: If a player-manager is cautioned as a team official, it still applies when he comes on as a player; ergo, he's already on a caution?
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That's a good a question - if the offences are different for cautioning a team official, then I doubt it would transfer should they come on the pitch? (eg. DRP is a caution for a player but send off if a team official delaying the opposing team)
 
Excellent question. I don't think the law makers thought that far into the implications of it but I'd still go with what the law dictates for the first question. This is part of law 5.3 Powers and Duties of the referee and it doesn't just apply to players or substitutes so I'd say you are correct in an indirect way.

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For the second question, again I'd go to laws in an indirect way. "Being on a cation already" appllies to players, subs and subbed players only , eg law 12.3 sending off offences. So I would treat him separately in his capacity here.

A clarification from IFAB would be nice though.
 
RobOda said:
I will e-mail and ask.

It just seems odd to me that a player-manager could have a three card trick, one caution as manager, two as player.
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Tempted to do so myself. Let us know the response.

I imagine it will depend on the offence. If it is something only a manager can be guilty of the do them for that however where possible treat in capacity as a player otherwise
 
JamesL said:
Tempted to do so myself. Let us know the response.

I imagine it will depend on the offence. If it is something only a manager can be guilty of the do them for that however where possible treat in capacity as a player otherwise
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What could a manager be cautioned for that a player could not?
 
RobOda said:
It just seems odd to me that a player-manager could have a three card trick, one caution as manager, two as player.
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Same here, I can't see how it would comport with the spirit of the game or "what football expects" for one person to be able to receive 3 yellow cards in one match.
 
socal lurker said:
What could a manager be cautioned for that a player could not?
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You can caution a player for anything you like under USB. But there are some offences that specificity and explicitly stated (mandatory) for team officials only.

Caution
  • clearly/persistently not respecting the confines of their team’s technical area
  • deliberately entering the technical area of the opposing team
  • excessively/persistently gesturing for a red or yellow card
  • ...

Send off
  • using unauthorised electronic or communication equipment and/or behaving in an inappropriate manner as the result of using electronic or communication equipment
  • delaying the restart of play by the opposing team e.g. holding onto the ball (caution for player)
  • (a few others which are only caution for players)
In tandem with OP question, if a team official is sent of as a team official, can they continue as a player? That for me depends on the send off offence. For example if sent of as a team official for delaying the restart or entering the field of play to interfere with play, then you should be able to continue as a player but if sent off for VC, then that should be the end of it.
 
I don't see that it matters, 2 x yellow = red
If he gets one for stepping outside the technical area, comes on, then commits a reckless challenge, 2nd yellow and off.
 
I asked this question at the start of the season. Our county stated:
  • If the player/manager is off the pitch, you caution or send off as team official.
  • If he is on the pitch as a player, you caution or send off as a player.
  • If he is cautioned on the pitch then goes off as a team official, the caution count does not follow through (so another caution as a team official will not result in a red card). This also works the other way round.
  • If they receive a red card as a team official, they cannot come on as a player as they should technically be sent away from pitch side. Again if they are sent off as a player they should also leave the pitchside so should not be acting as manager (although hard to manage at Sunday league parks level).
 
one said:
In tandem with OP question, if a team official is sent of as a team official, can they continue as a player? That for me depends on the send off offence. For example if sent of as a team official for delaying the restart or entering the field of play to interfere with play, then you should be able to continue as a player but if sent off for VC, then that should be the end of it.
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Same person - same rules for me.

You can't have differing sanctions for an individual based on what "role" he had at the time of the offence.

They're all the same. Players, subs, coaches. All wearing the same "badge".

The new changes to the LOTG brought equality with the dugout (in relation to their players) by permitting the ref to show red/yellow cards now as appropriate. Two strikes and you're out fella ... :cool:
 
Kes said:
Same person - same rules for me.

You can't have differing sanctions for an individual based on what "role" he had at the time of the offence.

They're all the same. Players, subs, coaches. All wearing the same "badge".

The new changes to the LOTG brought equality with the dugout (in relation to their players) by permitting the ref to show red/yellow cards now as appropriate. Two strikes and you're out fella ... :cool:
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I think you are contradicting yourself there if I am reading you correctly. You are saying the new LOTG clauses regarding team officials and sanctions are appropriate. Yet you are saying same person should be the same rules not different according to role.

The LOTG, would caution a player for forcing an opponent to delay the restart (hold off the ball in an opponent TI for example). Yet the same person doing the same thing as a team official (with the new LOTG clause) is a straight red card. It is not same person - same rules.
 
Answer from IFAB:

Thank you for the question

The answer simply depends on his/her status on the teamlist .

If listed as a substitute then any sanction is issued as for any other substitute

If listed as a team official then there is no possibility to play

We hope that clarifies matters

That was interesting. It seems from this point on I will have to inform player-managers that they are either one or the other and it seems there is no cross-over in sanctions.

I admit, I was not expecting the last bit, I suppose it doesn't stop them patrolling the technical area and barking out orders whilst listed as a sub?
 
one said:
I think you are contradicting yourself there if I am reading you correctly. You are saying the new LOTG clauses regarding team officials and sanctions are appropriate. Yet you are saying same person should be the same rules not different according to role.

The LOTG, would caution a player for forcing an opponent to delay the restart (hold off the ball in an opponent TI for example). Yet the same person doing the same thing as a team official (with the new LOTG clause) is a straight red card. It is not same person - same rules.
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Not quite.

I suppose all I'm saying is that the new law changes have moved us more in the direction of viewing all "team members" as equals rather than players/subs and then coaching staff aside.

Interesting IFAB response above though. Sort of clarifies that there should be no "crossover" from one to t'other. :cool:
 
RobOda said:
Answer from IFAB:

Thank you for the question

The answer simply depends on his/her status on the teamlist .

If listed as a substitute then any sanction is issued as for any other substitute

If listed as a team official then there is no possibility to play

We hope that clarifies matters

That was interesting. It seems from this point on I will have to inform player-managers that they are either one or the other and it seems there is no cross-over in sanctions.

I admit, I was not expecting the last bit, I suppose it doesn't stop them patrolling the technical area and barking out orders whilst listed as a sub?
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That does not solve my problem. The laws of the game do not stop a person to be listed twice, as player and as team official. That leaves competition rules. In my case all leagues I have refereed have allowed it and in fact in many cases they are listed twice if in both capacity. Although sometimes they only list themselves as player and leave the space for manager blank.
 
one said:
That does not solve my problem. The laws of the game do not stop a person to be listed twice, as player and as team official.
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Surely, the clarification from David Ellery there, pretty much infers that you can only be listed once.
 
one said:
That does not solve my problem. The laws of the game do not stop a person to be listed twice, as player and as team official. That leaves competition rules. In my case all leagues I have refereed have allowed it and in fact in many cases they are listed twice if in both capacity. Although sometimes they only list themselves as player and leave the space for manager blank.
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RobOda said:
Surely, the clarification from David Ellery there, pretty much infers that you can only be listed once.
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I think it does.

A Player-manager has to be listed either as a player or sub (regardless of whether he is listed twice)....otherwise he is just a manager:wall:!

If he is listed as a player and goes off, as with any substituted player any cautions follow him. There is no possibility of a three-card trick.
 
Well I think I found the answer in the laws. All conveniently in the same location in glossary. It does not necessarily stop them from listing themselves as a team official or technical staff, but if they are listed as players, they are always dealt with as players, even if in the TA. I.e., only non-players are considered as team official or technical staff.

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I like that as an answer, as it means the "player" is important in law while the "manager" is a purely ceremonial title within his team.

But the only issue that leaves us is can we sanction a player for an action listed under team official offenses? If the answer is yes then great - any card show to a player-manager is effectively the same as a card shown to a substitute and is easy to deal with. But if we're expected to keep track of the type of offenses (and which ones cross over), I'm not sure that's manageable.
 
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