A&H

Player admits VC? Red card?

M

Moortz

New Member
Level 6 Referee
Hello there.

Recently qualified ref although I've been around football for 15+ years. First game back today, a league sanctioned friendly. Between two u13 teams, first games at 11 a side.
Game started ok, evenly matched teams and a medium standard, everything went OK. Second half one team tired and started pushinf and tripping so I gave a couple of free kicks, I spoke to the players involved and everybody was ok. It was 4-0 to the home team at that point.
Then a tussle between two players on the sideline, defensive (home) teams right corner flag. I was right on it, 5 yards away but the ball went out and I couldn't see who it came off. I glanced at the lino to my left who shrugged, then came bombing over to me as the defender was lying on the floor rolling around dramatically.
Got the defenders coach on to check he was OK and isolated the attacking player, and said "what was that about? He replied
" i punched him ref, send me off". I got the away team manager over (who was the boys dad) and explained, and he said "ok send him off then". So I did. Only about 7 minutes left but after that the game just died.

After the game the dad came up and said the kid had said to his lad "give me the ball you f*cking lanky pr*ck", so that's why he thumped him, but as I said to the dad I didn't hear it.

Game finished no further incidents. I feel like it should be reported, they are a big club and feel it should go further.

So right decision based on a confession?

Sorry for the long first post😁
 
The Referee Store
Regardless of what seems a mature common sense approach
No you should not really be taking action on incidents you have not seen,
the whole reason a game has a neutral referee is to save the teams officiating thenselves, by this example, your attendancs is not required as they are self policing, rendering you redundant,

suppose hac it been my game, if the player was wanting to depart proceedings, i might have thought outside the box and said, ok go sub yourself, or, ok, just get off the pitch please

end of day i dont think any real harm has been caused

someone else somewhere else might have a different take on it, beauty of opinions
 
Agree withe above that you should only make decisions based on what you see/hear.

But... there is an exception to the rule... this is it... in this context - friendly, nothing game - the player has done you a huge favour here and possibly prevented an even worse situation. Common sense here is give him the red card and think to yourself "I thought so". It's like if 22 players, including the striker in question, tell you the striker scored with his hand - and you don't see it - you think, and you give the free kick. Just the same as making a smart guess on a throw in when you have no idea but all the players' movement tells you which way to go.

But this really is a once in a career moment.

There is another golden rule - especially at grassroots - always try to keep the players in view. This means always walk the wall from the outside looking in, always go around people towards the touchline to then warn/book them while you can still see the whole field. Need to warn a coach, don't face the bench, go around them so you can face the field. Waiting for subs, move wide so you can see all the players while the subs are handled. When someone goes down injured, go around, get outside, get everyone in view, then deal with them. Etc etc etc. Because as soon as you get sucked in facing the touchline, the s will hit the fan behind you - guaranteed!
 
In days gone by when you had to write a report for red cards I would say definitely no as effectively you would have to lie in the report, you are hardly going to write that you sent someone off for an act VC that you didn't see. Now it is a tick box I think I am reasonably comfortable when it is as clear cut as this and the offender has held his hands up. People talk about spirit of the game and what the game expects, and I think the expectation of both of those is if a player admits to punching an opponent he should walk.
 
sorry hopefully not too far off topic, but, anyone given a goal then have the scorer say " i was off ref" , or " i handled it" etc, before restarting?
 
Anubis said:
sorry hopefully not too far off topic, but, anyone given a goal then have the scorer say " i was off ref" , or " i handled it" etc, before restarting?
Click to expand...

No, but I've had a player tell me he wasn't fouled after I gave a penalty to him. Thanked him (not all of his team mates did ..!) and restarted with a dropped ball.
 
Moortz said:
So right decision based on a confession?
Click to expand...

Well, my ref's officer told me a story where he missed a headbutt once, and whilst they were attending to the victim, he just shouted 'now, which of you did this?' and the guy came forward and admitted it, so he sent him off. :D
 
This has been discussed a number of times here. One school of though is don't take action against anything you have not seen. I see that a few pin that school are being swayed a little 😊

The other is that accept 'reliable testimony'. This includes self confession. However we need to be carefully here that any testimony has to be of facts only and not interpretation. For example I can accept "the ball hit my hand" but can't accept "it was handball". So for OP I would send him off.
 
Last edited:
I had a grassroots game, maybe my second season, 15 players told me the striker scored with his hand, both teams, so I disallowed the goal. But I didn’t yellow card as I didn’t see it. I came up with rationale in my tiny mind. Of course, this was a horrible mistake as it totally undermined the players’ faith in me. Common sense, easy card, keep it simple, consistent.
 
Beware of the self confession. On one of the RA webcasts this year a top EFL referee told the story of a player who 'admitted' punching someone.

Turns out he did it to protect that team's best player from the sanction and subsequent suspension. This was a relatively 'high level' game so was videoed, hence how he knew about it afterwards.
 
santa sangria said:
I had a grassroots game, maybe my second season, 15 players told me the striker scored with his hand, both teams, so I disallowed the goal. But I didn’t yellow card as I didn’t see it. I came up with rationale in my tiny mind. Of course, this was a horrible mistake as it totally undermined the players’ faith in me. Common sense, easy card, keep it simple, consistent.
Click to expand...
Did the striker also say or admit to scoring with his hand? If so for me it more than justifies nullifying the caution.
PinnerPaul said:
Beware of the self confession. On one of the RA webcasts this year a top EFL referee told the story of a player who 'admitted' punching someone.

Turns out he did it to protect that team's best player from the sanction and subsequent suspension. This was a relatively 'high level' game so was videoed, hence how he knew about it afterwards.
Click to expand...
League's management of this is not going to be much different with the alternative. TBH I do what is right for the game, report all the facts and let them worry about the rest. If I don't send the confessor off match control is shut for the rest of the game. Without video, they both likely to get away with it. With video, league is likely to sanction the actual offender.

I do sent send the confessor off I keep match control and I expect the league to sanction both players with video evidence. Now if the league has some silly rule that means the actual offender gets away with it, it's their problem.
 
RustyRef said:
No, but I've had a player tell me he wasn't fouled after I gave a penalty to him. Thanked him (not all of his team mates did ..!) and restarted with a dropped ball.
Click to expand...
I think I'd be a bit wary about that one. Given most players' sketchy knowledge of what is and isn't a foul, I'm not sure I'd necessarily trust a player's judgement on this.

For instance, a lot of players seem to think that if the tackler contacted the ball first then it isn't a foul but we all know that's not the case.

There's actually a thread about this ongoing at the moment.

I got the ball, ref!
 
Peter Grove said:
I think I'd be a bit wary about that one. Given most players' sketchy knowledge of what is and isn't a foul, I'm not sure I'd necessarily trust a player's judgement on this.

For instance, a lot of players seem to think that if the tackler contacted the ball first then it isn't a foul but we all know that's not the case.

There's actually a thread about this ongoing at the moment.

I got the ball, ref!
Click to expand...
This is a matter interpretation. If it happens (and sometimes in handball too) it's a situation that needs to be handled thoughtfully. On the one hand it's a KMI you would want a restart according to a decision you are reasonably sure of. On the other hand you don't want to lose respect of players by looking arrogant and obnoxious.
My way of handling this (and I have) is to get the couple of players involved and the captains and explain. "Look I saw this differently to you so I would like to give the pen. What you do with it is entirely up to you and I am more than happy to accommodate if you choose to kick it straight out".
 
RustyRef said:
No, but I've had a player tell me he wasn't fouled after I gave a penalty to him. Thanked him (not all of his team mates did ..!) and restarted with a dropped ball.
Click to expand...

That's never happened to me yet. I have however in the past given a penalty for something that looked blatant to me, only to find myself the only person within 100 yards who thought it was a penalty!! :oops:

I learned a lot from that event, and also from listening to a Premier League Official giving a "top tips" talk a few years back on making life easier for yourself as a referee. His top tip was: "Unless you're 100% sure of the opposite, give the 'expected' decision whenever you're able". :)

I also tie that advice in with the notion that if you see something that looks like a penalty, but nobody appeals, think before blowing that whistle ... ;) (though some may not agree). If you're being observed, then it's a slightly different kettle of fish I suppose, but by yourself on a windswept grass roots park, if there's no appeal, I'm most likely letting it go ... :cool:
 
Kes said:
That's never happened to me yet. I have however in the past given a penalty for something that looked blatant to me, only to find myself the only person within 100 yards who thought it was a penalty!! :oops:

I learned a lot from that event, and also from listening to a Premier League Official giving a "top tips" talk a few years back on making life easier for yourself as a referee. His top tip was: "Unless you're 100% sure of the opposite, give the 'expected' decision whenever you're able". :)

I also tie that advice in with the notion that if you see something that looks like a penalty, but nobody appeals, think before blowing that whistle ... ;) (though some may not agree). If you're being observed, then it's a slightly different kettle of fish I suppose, but by yourself on a windswept grass roots park, if there's no appeal, I'm most likely letting it go ... :cool:
Click to expand...
Agree with that, difficult for me to explain what I mean to type but, another way of looking at it is to remove yourself from the game and imagine you are watching it from the sideline....does it look like a foul, do people expect the foul to be given? if so, then yes, simply give it.

My refereeing has changed recently and ( again its difficult to explain exact what i mean) but the minor calls, I just go thro the motions, I dont give them too much thought for my own feelings, if it looks like a foul and the players expect a foul ( and the opposite), then thats what I give
I switch on fully tho at the kmi, the last man, the sfp, the pk, the big calls.
Thats the calls the players need you to get right, thats the ones you be remebered for.
did it at weekend and coach said as much afterwards, " you let a lot go for both teams but you got the two pk appeals spot on"

job done
 
Anubis said:
Agree with that, difficult for me to explain what I mean to type but, another way of looking at it is to remove yourself from the game and imagine you are watching it from the sideline....does it look like a foul, do people expect the foul to be given? if so, then yes, simply give it.

My refereeing has changed recently and ( again its difficult to explain exact what i mean) but the minor calls, I just go thro the motions, I dont give them too much thought for my own feelings, if it looks like a foul and the players expect a foul ( and the opposite), then thats what I give
I switch on fully tho at the kmi, the last man, the sfp, the pk, the big calls.
Thats the calls the players need you to get right, thats the ones you be remebered for.
did it at weekend and coach said as much afterwards, " you let a lot go for both teams but you got the two pk appeals spot on"

job done
Click to expand...
Strangely I would say I have started to do the same. I daresay influenced by what we saw over the summer and generally accepted by all.
 
Kes said:
I also tie that advice in with the notion that if you see something that looks like a penalty, but nobody appeals, think before blowing that whistle ... ;) (though some may not agree). If you're being observed, then it's a slightly different kettle of fish I suppose, but by yourself on a windswept grass roots park, if there's no appeal, I'm most likely letting it go ... :cool:
Click to expand...

Completely agree with that. Unfortunately we all at some point have the issue where we are sure we have seen something that just hasn't happened, whether it is a case of being blocked slightly, a trick of the light, or even just blinking at a bad moment. Given that players appeal for absolutely everything, it is unfathomable that a penalty offence will have occurred that not a single attacking player has appealed for.

At the very least alarm bells need to be ringing if you think you've seen a penalty and there are no appeals.
 
No, only give what you see. If for whatever reason the incident results in an FA hearing and the only answer to their questions are ‘I didn’t see it, he just told me it happened’ they won’t be impressed
 
QuaverRef said:
No, only give what you see. If for whatever reason the incident results in an FA hearing and the only answer to their questions are ‘I didn’t see it, he just told me it happened’ they won’t be impressed
Click to expand...

But a red card can't be appealed any more, so that risk is now gone.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top