The Ref Stop

Player abusive to club linesman. What actions can you take?

Rightly or wrongly, I always say in my, (now rare) pre match to CARS, if anyone has a word with you let me know and I'll have a word with them.

This allows leeway on how to sanction - depending on what I ACTUALLY hear/see.
 
The Ref Stop
PinnerPaul said:
Rightly or wrongly, I always say in my, (now rare) pre match to CARS, if anyone has a word with you let me know and I'll have a word with them.

This allows leeway on how to sanction - depending on what I ACTUALLY hear/see.
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I think that's treading a dangerous path tbh - CARS aren't unbiased and may well want to draw your attention to, for instance, an opposition striker who they've disagreed with but who hasn't committed any offence. It's a fine line to judge, but you need to support them but recognise that they aren't neutral.
 
If a CAR tells me that someone has said something to them and I’ve not heard it, I tell them that as I’ve not heard it I can’t do anything, but that I’ll keep an ear out as best I can in case there are any more instances.
 
Kes said:
Odd. Especially when you consider the actions of the player in the video in this thread where the referee acts correctly in law ... ;)
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I think that's a Ref who was more interested in promotion that doing what was right for the game
I would never (I do hope) stoop so low as to value promotion that much. Doing what I feel is right would be more important to me
That's half the trouble with Refs on the Promotion bandwagon IMO. The football community just lose respect for the refereeing community as a result of such incidents
 
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Big Cat said:
I think that's a Ref who was more interested in promotion that doing what was right for the game
I would never (I do hope) stoop so low as to value promotion that much. Doing what I feel is right would be more important to me
That's half the trouble with Refs on the Promotion bandwagon IMO. The football community just lose respect for the refereeing community as a result of such incidents
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Possibly.
Although not quite the same example of VC as being discussed here, I used it to demonstrate that the posters on here who state that in the case of two players (one attacking the other) who swing punches, they both have to receive a red as per the LOTG, irrespective of whatever seems "fair".

In the example I've shown, like you (and I expect many others) I'd be keeping the red in my pocket for sure. ;)
 
Kes said:
Possibly.
Although not quite the same example of VC as being discussed here, I used it to demonstrate that the posters on here who state that in the case of two players (one attacking the other) who swing punches, they both have to receive a red as per the LOTG, irrespective of whatever seems "fair".

In the example I've shown, like you (and I expect many others) I'd be keeping the red in my pocket for sure. ;)
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Well yeh, it may be in the best interests of a player acting in self-defence to be dismissed. A game in which such a player was allowed to continue could go completely pair-shaped due to reprisals etc.
I'd be submitting an ER however, to admonish the aggressor whilst absolving the counterattacker
 
Big Cat said:
Well yeh, it may be in the best interests of a player acting in self-defence to be dismissed. A game in which such a player was allowed to continue could go completely pair-shaped due to reprisals etc.
I'd be submitting an ER however, to admonish the aggressor whilst absolving the counterattacker
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Goes without saying ... :)
 
Big Cat said:
I think that's a Ref who was more interested in promotion that doing what was right for the game
I would never (I do hope) stoop so low as to value promotion that much. Doing what I feel is right would be more important to me
That's half the trouble with Refs on the Promotion bandwagon IMO. The football community just lose respect for the refereeing community as a result of such incidents
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I’d suggest it is a referee of a relatively high level game who knows that he is being filmed, and that if he doesn’t apply the laws correctly that it is him who’ll be for the high jump.

Violent conduct is violent conduct, if the player thinks they’ve been hard done by then they can appeal and the FA can make the call.
 
Agree VC is VC and it needs to be dealt with.
I'd also point to the fact that the club themselves will already be in got water for "allowing" a spectator onto FOP so will already be facing a charge of failure to control spectators.
I have some sympathy with the player, as he was trying to help and I think most people would think the ref was being a jobsworth despite issuing the correct sanction.
 
Like I say, an example of why most folk view Referees with disdain. Club Marks are my priority, screw the observations
 
Big Cat said:
Like I say, an example of why most folk view Referees with disdain. Club Marks are my priority, screw the observations
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I see your point, but think about it this way.
A normal season will see you take charge of, let's say 20 middles. That's 40 clubs marking you across the season.
In that period of time you will see, let's use a maximum figure, 5 observers. I don't think I have ever had 5 obs in a season but that is supposed to be the amount.
Law of averages here. 1 bad number is going to have more of an effect to observer mark than 1 bad score off a club.
Play the game. When the observer is there, ref the same game as you would normally, but don't ignore the law, its the highest weighted criteria and is the one that will really crap on your mark.
Club marks are recoverable, observer marks less so.
We also don't give clubs enough credit, certainly down my way, my club marks are largely in tune with my observer marks (albeit I am a tad unhappy with one of my observations, which was adjusted, a smidge) with my positions in each respective table just 3 apart.
 
Big Cat said:
Like I say, an example of why most folk view Referees with disdain. Club Marks are my priority, screw the observations
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I’m not sure that’s true, and we certainly shouldnt be recommending that people ignore the laws for the sake of keeping the clubs happy.
 
Martiju said:
I think that's treading a dangerous path tbh - CARS aren't unbiased and may well want to draw your attention to, for instance, an opposition striker who they've disagreed with but who hasn't committed any offence. It's a fine line to judge, but you need to support them but recognise that they aren't neutral.
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Agree. To have a serious word, think I would have to see and maybe partially hear the dissent. You usually can witness at least something going on.

In my 'unsighted' scenario, I agree 100%, you can't go flashing the cards based on an unqualified assistant's say so.

Further, I think if you DID have a word with a player who had genuinely done NOTHING wrong, it would be pretty obvious from his reaction.
 
JamesL said:
I see your point, but think about it this way.
A normal season will see you take charge of, let's say 20 middles. That's 40 clubs marking you across the season.
In that period of time you will see, let's use a maximum figure, 5 observers. I don't think I have ever had 5 obs in a season but that is supposed to be the amount.
Law of averages here. 1 bad number is going to have more of an effect to observer mark than 1 bad score off a club.
Play the game. When the observer is there, ref the same game as you would normally, but don't ignore the law, its the highest weighted criteria and is the one that will really crap on your mark.
Club marks are recoverable, observer marks less so.
We also don't give clubs enough credit, certainly down my way, my club marks are largely in tune with my observer marks (albeit I am a tad unhappy with one of my observations, which was adjusted, a smidge) with my positions in each respective table just 3 apart.
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Don't take everything I say 'literally'... thought you knew me better than that ;)
It's true however, that it means more to me to act in the game's best interests than it does to please the observer. So even if I was being observed, I wouldn't forgive myself if I'd sent that lad off. I'd forego that observation so to speak, assuming the observer felt the need to contest the decision.
It does trouble me that the majority referee according to the observer's agenda, rather than their own. I don't think that culture breeds the best of referees. I think it's a mistake to see the LOTG as something other than a framework for us to deliver what the game expects. There are times when we need to think for ourselves
 
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Big Cat said:
Don't take everything I say 'literally'... thought you knew me better than that ;)
It's true however, that it means more to me to act in the game's best interests than it does to please the observer. So even if I was being observed, I wouldn't forgive myself if I'd sent that lad off. I'd forego that observation so to speak, assuming the observer felt the need to contest the decision.
It does trouble me that the majority referee according to the observer's agenda, rather than their own. I don't think that culture breeds the best of referees. I think it's a mistake to see the LOTG as something other than a framework for us to deliver what the game expects. There are times when we need to think for ourselves
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In fairness though, it is easy for you to say that as you haven't spent years getting to a senior level. I'd guess the link that Kes posted was a Conference South game so a L2B referee, or possibly L3 if it was before the split of L2 came in. It is extremely difficult to get to 2B or even 3, one bad observation and all that hard work risks being wasted and you go back down. You can't control certain things like missing a bad tackle or a DOGSO, but this is controllable and the player really didn't need to do what he did as there were stewards on the pitch. This was a semi-pro and former pro centre half, pretty sure he could have just held onto the idiot until the stewards got there. I've stood next to Ashley Vickers, he is a man mountain and he just didn't need to react as he did.

If that was me I would be looking firstly at is it being filmed. As it was, and officially rather than someone with a phone, I'd be asking myself what would happen if the FA got that video and I didn't send off. An incident like that is always going to go viral, so highly likely it would be a charge of failing to proficiently apply the laws, and at least a three week suspension, so yes I would have done what the referee did.

With no filming my immediate thought would be who the observer is. There are some that would take real pleasure in tearing you apart for not sending off, equally there are some that would back you for a common sense approach. You always need to know who your observer is, and this is an example of where that would be more important than ever.
 
RustyRef said:
In fairness though, it is easy for you to say that as you haven't spent years getting to a senior level. I'd guess the link that Kes posted was a Conference South game so a L2B referee, or possibly L3 if it was before the split of L2 came in. It is extremely difficult to get to 2B or even 3, one bad observation and all that hard work risks being wasted and you go back down. You can't control certain things like missing a bad tackle or a DOGSO, but this is controllable and the player really didn't need to do what he did as there were stewards on the pitch. This was a semi-pro and former pro centre half, pretty sure he could have just held onto the idiot until the stewards got there. I've stood next to Ashley Vickers, he is a man mountain and he just didn't need to react as he did.

If that was me I would be looking firstly at is it being filmed. As it was, and officially rather than someone with a phone, I'd be asking myself what would happen if the FA got that video and I didn't send off. An incident like that is always going to go viral, so highly likely it would be a charge of failing to proficiently apply the laws, and at least a three week suspension, so yes I would have done what the referee did.

With no filming my immediate thought would be who the observer is. There are some that would take real pleasure in tearing you apart for not sending off, equally there are some that would back you for a common sense approach. You always need to know who your observer is, and this is an example of where that would be more important than ever.
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I suppose it means I wouldn't reach a high level like this fella. But then look at the Referee his allegiance has made him. Not a very good one in that particular circumstance
I want to do what's right by the game. I'll referee to someone else's agenda to a large extent, but I won't do it blindly. I wouldn't let rules that don't cater for unforeseen incidents get in the way of common sense and 'what the game expects' and so on
 
To perhaps 'go back a step', do we think that the referee was shouting to the players not to get involved? If he is proactively telling them to leave it to the stewards - surely it is then more understandable when he then sends off the player involved.
Also, when he was flashing the red card, why not pull the player in - and the captain, and maybe even the captain of the opposition team to explain why he has to send off, before showing the card! It appeared that both teams felt the decision to send off was stupid - so surely an explanation to both would have helped?
 
Big Cat said:
Don't take everything I say 'literally'... thought you knew me better than that ;)
It's true however, that it means more to me to act in the game's best interests than it does to please the observer. So even if I was being observed, I wouldn't forgive myself if I'd sent that lad off. I'd forego that observation so to speak, assuming the observer felt the need to contest the decision.
It does trouble me that the majority referee according to the observer's agenda, rather than their own. I don't think that culture breeds the best of referees. I think it's a mistake to see the LOTG as something other than a framework for us to deliver what the game expects. There are times when we need to think for ourselves
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It's a balancing act.
You wouldn't want to throw progression in the bin on the basis that you are somehow leading some greater cause.
A general guide to go by and a phrase I often hear is manage the technical and punish the physical.
You have to take each case on its own. I had a situation once where a fight broke out in the spectator area, and 3 players jumped off the FOP but were peace making.
No cautions given, despite mandatory leave FOP. In my report I literally wrote cautions weren't appropriate as the actions of the players diffused the situation. I got commendation off both clubs and the FA at the hearing for how I handled the situation.
In the video Kes posted I can't see how anything other than a send off is the right action, the player becomes the aggressor.
OK he resolves a situation, but he does so in an aggressive brutal manner that wasnt needed.
 
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