At what point is the ball dead in a penalty shootout? Saw a penalty hit the crossbar and then hit the goalkeeper on his back and rebounded in. Ref gave a goal but my understanding is if the ball changes direction from towards to away from the goal, it shouldn't count. Any thoughts?
Penalty Shoot Outs
- Thread starter Gary F
- Start date
Ciley Myrus
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Goal
Plenty examples on youtube etc of keepers thinking they have saved it, doing a victory dance, then seeing the ball roll into the net.
Plenty examples on youtube etc of keepers thinking they have saved it, doing a victory dance, then seeing the ball roll into the net.
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
Goal, the laws of the game say:
“The kick is completed when the ball stops moving, goes out of play, or the referee stops play for any offence; the kicker may not play the ball a second time”
Nothing in there about change of direction etc
“The kick is completed when the ball stops moving, goes out of play, or the referee stops play for any offence; the kicker may not play the ball a second time”
Nothing in there about change of direction etc
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Referees used to be taught a rule of thumb that when the forward momentum stops, the kick is over. This was wrong, it always was. It should have just been simpler, when the ball stops, the kick is over. What that line was trying to say was not 'forward momentum' but 'original momentum'.
In that a ball bouncing forwards off the crossbar still has original momentum, even if it isn't moving forwards.
So because of that dumb rule of thumb that got taught, that's where your misconception came from.
In fact, there are a number of videos online where the ball hits the crossbar, bounces out, keeper runs off celebrating and the ball trickles over the goal line.
And when that happens?
It's a GGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your response. The problem I have with this is that Law 14 doesn't cover penalty shoot-outs, just penalties in normal play. This needs clarifying by the powers that be. Whilst I accept that a goal should be awarded as the law stands, it doesn't make sense that, in a penalty shoot out situation, the player taking the kick still benefits from a direct rebound off the woodwork or goalkeeper (or a combination of both) if the ball has changed direction (from forwards to backwards).
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
You want to read Law 10 - Determining The Outcome Of a Match
Specifically the part about Kicks from the Penalty Mark.
Specifically the part about Kicks from the Penalty Mark.
- The kick is completed when the ball stops moving, goes out of play or the referee stops play for any offence; the kicker may not play the ball a second time.
- I'm playing the Devil's advocate, what happens then if the ball strikes the crossbar and rebounds out of the area to where the 2nd assistant referee is standing (on the field of play) and he kicks the ball back and it ends up in the goal? The ball has not stopped moving and the 2nd Assistant Referee is deemed to be part of the field of play?
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
That's when we go to the 'spirit of the game' clause that's in the laws 
And given it's not normal play, I see no obligation to apply the normal 'play on' procedure for the ball striking an official....although the ball striking an official isn't the same as an official striking the ball.
And given it's not normal play, I see no obligation to apply the normal 'play on' procedure for the ball striking an official....although the ball striking an official isn't the same as an official striking the ball.
Kicks from the penalty mark are taken after the match has ended and unless otherwise stated, the relevant Laws of the Game apply
That's the problem, nothing "otherwise" is stated. During normal play if a player misses a penalty, and the ball remains in play, the player taking the kick cannot touch the ball again until another player has touched it but the game continues. At a penalty shoot out there is no mention of the penatly being completed because the ball has stopped moving.
That's the problem, nothing "otherwise" is stated. During normal play if a player misses a penalty, and the ball remains in play, the player taking the kick cannot touch the ball again until another player has touched it but the game continues. At a penalty shoot out there is no mention of the penatly being completed because the ball has stopped moving.
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
There isn’t that much ambiguity in Law 10, they just choose not to cover every single scenario no matter how outlandish it is.
The kick is completed when:
1. The ball stops moving,
2. The ball goes out of play,
3. The referee stops play for any offence.
one
RefChat Addict
@Gary F I think you are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
Whats there now is as good as it can be without making it over-complicated.
And we can only blame IFAB for that. The laws of the games used to say "The referee decides when a penalty kick has been completed." which is just as good as (or as bad as) not saying anything at at all. The frist thing a new referee would ask is "But how?"
Whats there now is as good as it can be without making it over-complicated.
I'm not overcomplicating the issue. It is all about interpreting the laws correctly. As you know the laws are written in numerous different languages which then leads to slight differences and nuances depending what your mother tongue is. (the bible has the same problem!). Despite whether or not one agrees with the way the laws of the game are written, I long for the day when all the laws start with, "If, in the opinion of the referee......."
We know that a vast majority of players and coaches do not know a lot of the laws of the game and because FIFA keep tweaking them (e.g., the goalkeeper, offside, and VAR no doubt very soon).
We know that a vast majority of players and coaches do not know a lot of the laws of the game and because FIFA keep tweaking them (e.g., the goalkeeper, offside, and VAR no doubt very soon).
"If there is any divergence in the wording, the English text is authoritative." From introductory Notes on the Laws of the Game.
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
But you are, you asked when the kick was complete and you were told by several posters what the law says.
You then complained about law 14 and were pointed in the direction of law 10.
You then came back with some outlandish scenario where the ball hits the cross bar and gets deflected towards one of the assistants who then scores a worldly.
Kicks from the penalty mark aren’t complicated. They’re like most of the laws, it’s referees who complicate them by doing their own thing and then passing this on to others as fact (I know you didn’t, you asked a question)
It’s like the number of referees who think players who shout “mine” or “leave it” are committing an offence and tell them to “put a name on it”
Or those who think that every handball must be a caution, whether it stops a promising attack etc or not.
one
RefChat Addict
I'll email Vatican for an addition to Bible's introductory notes
You've seen the two posts mentioning law 10, right? It goes into extreme detail on how kicks from the penalty mark work.
Good. They do exactly this for cricket, and it's a ball-ache. My dad chose to become a cricket umpire, so I had a gander at their version of the good book. Nope, just not for me. I have trouble remembering football's laws as it is!
It cannot be overstated how simple the laws of the game are compared to other sports. Especially the big sports in North America. The National Hockey League rule book for example has a rule that covers goalie interference (one of the 87 rules in hockey). It's 1246 words.
It can be summarized by this flow chart.
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