Hmmm. I suppose the ball is important in this decision, but the most important for determining the restart following an offence is the position of the actual offence.The only thing that matters is where the ball is: if any part of the ball is on or over the PA line, the ball is considered to be in the PA so it is a PK. If the ball is entirely outside the PA, then it is a DFK.
The Q was only about handling, hence the focus on the ball.Hmmm. I suppose the ball is important in this decision, but the most important for determining the restart following an offence is the position of the actual offence.
In this scenario the offence is handball. That offence is committed outside the PA. However I agree that if the offence overlaps the boundary to the PA, a PK is the correct outcome.
Using the ball's position as the determining factor could create confusion around other offences occurring outside the PA whilst ball is in PA. For example ball in PA and trip occurring outside PA would be a DFK, not a PK despite position of ball.
Yes, I Know you know it but a new ref reading it might not make that distinction.The Q was only about handling, hence the focus on the ball.
I totally agree that the location of the ball is irrelevant for other fouls--the relevant questions is the point of contact between the players (i.e., where did the legs meet on a trip).
The only thing that matters is where the ball is touched. If the ball is partially inside the penalty area but the point where the ball is touched is outside the penalty area, the correct restart would be a free kick.The only thing that matters is where the ball is: if any part of the ball is on or over the PA line, the ball is considered to be in the PA so it is a PK. If the ball is entirely outside the PA, then it is a DFK.
Yes. I was over simplifying because of course a HB offence in the PA is not taken from the position of the offence. You'll note from my earlier post I agree with the boundary part.@JamesL I believe in an attempt to remove confusion you may have made it clear as mud
I would like to put it in a different way. The position of the offence is where the restart is taken (except if offence is in goal area or outside of field of play). The position of offence is determined differently for different offences. This is mostly convention rather than spelt out in the book.
For example for most fouls with contact, the position of where first contact occured determines the restart. A continuous hold is a little complicated. If it starts or ends in PA then it's a pen.
For handball the position of the ball is the determining factor (not consideration). Position of the offender, his/her arm or the point of contact is irrelevant. If at the time of contact any part of the ball is in the field of play, even if contact was outside the filed of play, it's a handball. If any part of the ball is inside the PA then it's a pen (no DFK for goal keeper).
Keep in mind that line are part of the area they are a boundry for.
@Mr Dean I am fairly certain you are incorrect.
This.@JamesL I believe in an attempt to remove confusion you may have made it clear as mud
It could, but not when the post is explicitly and crystally clear that what is being discussed is only a question of a handball offence with the player located on the penalty area line.My point was, by saying where the ball was could cause confusion for other offences eg ball in PA, offence outside.
I agree. It's only the position of the ball that matters, it's not where the ball is touched.@Mr Dean I am fairly certain you are incorrect.
Do you have a screenshot of the full reply? You asked two questions.According to this from ifab it would appear that @Mr Dean is correct
View attachment 4987
This was the question:
View attachment 4988
I asked to clarify exactly if the part of the ball handled is outside of area then a direct free kick is awarded to which they replied "correct".
So position of the offence it is
That was the full reply, hence my clarification question..Do you have a screenshot of the full reply? You asked two questions.
A couple of points. Your question is a bit loaded. Technically 'contact' happed outside of the area. Where the offence occured is up for debate. For me, the offence for a handball is where the ball is at the time of contact.*
Second point, email replies from IFAB don't carry as much weight anymore. We have seen the contradictory to laws or their own Q and A.
* Positioning of location of the offence has never changed for handball. A few years back offences outside of the FOP had a restart of dropped ball. Consider a scenario before that change. The ball is in play but partially outside the field of play. The part outside is deliberately touched by a player. The restart never was a dropped ball for it. The offence was in the field of play.
Are you saying their full reply was "correct".That was the full reply, hence my clarification question..
In your scenario the ball is handled whilst it is in play. The offence of handling the ball happens outside the field of play so a DFK from boundary line or PK if within PA boundary.
I think the principle changed when ifab introduced FKs to be taken from position of offence before that there were various locations of restart ranging for Poo, to position of ball to somewhere else.
Loaded question or not, unintentional and I was descriptive their reply is unambiguous and I would rely on it if I needed to
See above I hadn't actually shared the original replyAre you saying their full reply was "correct".
That reply does not make sense for either of your questions which require a yes or no reply.
Question: "Is this permissable?"
Reply: 'Correct"
What does that mean? I think their clarification needs clarification (typical)
Are you saying their full reply was "correct".
That reply does not make sense for either of your questions which require a yes or no reply.
Question: "Is this permissable?"
Reply: 'Correct"
What does that mean? I think their clarification needs clarification (typical)
Edit: just saw your latest post. I stand by my last sentence.
8@JamesL I believe in an attempt to remove confusion you may have made it clear as mud
I would like to put it in a different way. The position of the offence is where the restart is taken (except if offence is in goal area or outside of field of play). The position of offence is determined differently for different offences. This is mostly convention rather than spelt out in the book.
For example for most fouls with contact, the position of where first contact occured determines the restart. A continuous hold is a little complicated. If it starts or continues into PA then it's a pen.
For handball the position of the ball is the determining factor (not just a consideration). Position of the offender, his/her arm or the point of contact is irrelevant for restart. If at the time of contact any part of the ball is in the field of play, even if contact was outside the filed of play, it's a handball. If any part of the ball is inside the PA then it's a pen (no DFK or pen for goal keeper).
Keep in mind that line are part of the area they are a boundry for.
@Mr Dean I am fairly certain you are incorrect.
Thanks for helping here it’s much appreciated. You did better than The FA website! My take away learning is to bare in mind the penalty area ends at the outer edge of the white like. Not where I had put the ‘VAR” lines on the inside edge. Thanks again.
IMHO, if a member of the defending team handles the ball as described, i. e. their hand makes contact with the ball outside the penalty area, that is the moment the offence occurs so a direct free kick would be correct.They answered correct to:
So does that mean, if the hand makes Contact with the part of the ball outside of the Penalty area a direct free kick should be awarded?