Ref4Me

Penalty or free kick

KSA OTB

New Member
Hi! Is the assessment correct in the attached picture. Outfield player handles the ball as it was outside the penalty area but standing inside the area, penalty or free kick?
 

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JamesL

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Level 4 Referee
The only thing that matters is where the ball is: if any part of the ball is on or over the PA line, the ball is considered to be in the PA so it is a PK. If the ball is entirely outside the PA, then it is a DFK.
Hmmm. I suppose the ball is important in this decision, but the most important for determining the restart following an offence is the position of the actual offence.
In this scenario the offence is handball. That offence is committed outside the PA. However I agree that if the offence overlaps the boundary to the PA, a PK is the correct outcome.
Using the ball's position as the determining factor could create confusion around other offences occurring outside the PA whilst ball is in PA. For example ball in PA and trip occurring outside PA would be a DFK, not a PK despite position of ball.
 
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socal lurker

RefChat Addict
Hmmm. I suppose the ball is important in this decision, but the most important for determining the restart following an offence is the position of the actual offence.
In this scenario the offence is handball. That offence is committed outside the PA. However I agree that if the offence overlaps the boundary to the PA, a PK is the correct outcome.
Using the ball's position as the determining factor could create confusion around other offences occurring outside the PA whilst ball is in PA. For example ball in PA and trip occurring outside PA would be a DFK, not a PK despite position of ball.
The Q was only about handling, hence the focus on the ball.

I totally agree that the location of the ball is irrelevant for other fouls--the relevant questions is the point of contact between the players (i.e., where did the legs meet on a trip).
 

JamesL

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Level 4 Referee
The Q was only about handling, hence the focus on the ball.

I totally agree that the location of the ball is irrelevant for other fouls--the relevant questions is the point of contact between the players (i.e., where did the legs meet on a trip).
Yes, I Know you know it but a new ref reading it might not make that distinction.
Position of the ball and arm are obviously in handball for determining the position of the offence, but if you want to be anal like me then I'd always position it as position of offence to avoid any confusion or doubt 😊 and the use the other two as considerations as to how to make that determination
 

Mr Dean

Well-Known Member
The only thing that matters is where the ball is: if any part of the ball is on or over the PA line, the ball is considered to be in the PA so it is a PK. If the ball is entirely outside the PA, then it is a DFK.
The only thing that matters is where the ball is touched. If the ball is partially inside the penalty area but the point where the ball is touched is outside the penalty area, the correct restart would be a free kick.
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
@JamesL I believe in an attempt to remove confusion you may have made it clear as mud :)

I would like to put it in a different way. The position of the offence is where the restart is taken (except if offence is in goal area or outside of field of play). The position of offence is determined differently for different offences. This is mostly convention rather than spelt out in the book.

For example for most fouls with contact, the position of where first contact occured determines the restart. A continuous hold is a little complicated. If it starts or continues into PA then it's a pen.

For handball the position of the ball is the determining factor (not just a consideration). Position of the offender, his/her arm or the point of contact is irrelevant for restart. If at the time of contact any part of the ball is in the field of play, even if contact was outside the filed of play, it's a handball. If any part of the ball is inside the PA then it's a pen (no DFK or pen for goal keeper).

Keep in mind that line are part of the area they are a boundry for.

@Mr Dean I am fairly certain you are incorrect.
 
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JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
@JamesL I believe in an attempt to remove confusion you may have made it clear as mud :)

I would like to put it in a different way. The position of the offence is where the restart is taken (except if offence is in goal area or outside of field of play). The position of offence is determined differently for different offences. This is mostly convention rather than spelt out in the book.

For example for most fouls with contact, the position of where first contact occured determines the restart. A continuous hold is a little complicated. If it starts or ends in PA then it's a pen.

For handball the position of the ball is the determining factor (not consideration). Position of the offender, his/her arm or the point of contact is irrelevant. If at the time of contact any part of the ball is in the field of play, even if contact was outside the filed of play, it's a handball. If any part of the ball is inside the PA then it's a pen (no DFK for goal keeper).

Keep in mind that line are part of the area they are a boundry for.

@Mr Dean I am fairly certain you are incorrect.
Yes. I was over simplifying because of course a HB offence in the PA is not taken from the position of the offence. You'll note from my earlier post I agree with the boundary part.
My point was, by saying where the ball was could cause confusion for other offences eg ball in PA, offence outside. Of course that's not possible with HB.
Law 13 language is explicit that FKs are taken from where the offence occurs except for....
It's not where the ball is, it's where the offence happens. As I said ball and arm position critical for HB but using where offence occurs is cleaner.
 

KSA OTB

New Member
Thanks for helping here it’s much appreciated. You did better than The FA website! My take away learning is to bare in mind the penalty area ends at the outer edge of the white like. Not where I had put the ‘VAR” lines on the inside edge. Thanks again.
 

Peter Grove

RefChat Addict
@JamesL - your reply makes it sound as if for all offences, even including handball, the position of the offence is the only thing that matters, but without defining exactly what you mean by "position of the offence."

Because of course with handball, the offence occurs where the ball is, but your post largely obfuscates that.

My point was, by saying where the ball was could cause confusion for other offences eg ball in PA, offence outside.
It could, but not when the post is explicitly and crystally clear that what is being discussed is only a question of a handball offence with the player located on the penalty area line.
 

Peter Grove

RefChat Addict
@Mr Dean I am fairly certain you are incorrect.
I agree. It's only the position of the ball that matters, it's not where the ball is touched.

In the example he gives, if the ball is in the penalty area (which includes being only partially in it) when it is handled by an outfielder, that is a penalty, not a free kick.

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall an example of a VAR review where this happened. A player who was wholly outside the penalty area handled a ball which was overhanging the penalty area line, by touching the part of the ball that was outside the area. A penalty was given, which was the correct decision.
 
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JamesL

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Level 4 Referee
According to this from ifab it would appear that @Mr Dean is correct

Screenshot_20210609_121240_com.android.email.jpg

This was the question:

Screenshot_20210609_121240_com.android.email.jpg

I asked to clarify exactly if the part of the ball handled is outside of area then a direct free kick is awarded to which they replied "correct".

So position of the offence it is ☺️
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
According to this from ifab it would appear that @Mr Dean is correct

View attachment 4987

This was the question:

View attachment 4988

I asked to clarify exactly if the part of the ball handled is outside of area then a direct free kick is awarded to which they replied "correct".

So position of the offence it is ☺️
Do you have a screenshot of the full reply? You asked two questions.

A couple of points. Your question is a bit loaded. Technically 'contact' happed outside of the area. Where the offence occured is up for debate. For me, the offence for a handball is where the ball is at the time of contact.*

Second point, email replies from IFAB don't carry as much weight anymore. We have seen the contradictory to laws or their own Q and A.

* Positioning of location of the offence has never changed for handball. A few years back offences outside of the FOP had a restart of dropped ball. Consider a scenario before that change. The ball is in play but partially outside the field of play. The part outside is deliberately touched by a player. The restart never was a dropped ball for it. The offence was in the field of play.
 

JamesL

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Level 4 Referee
Do you have a screenshot of the full reply? You asked two questions.

A couple of points. Your question is a bit loaded. Technically 'contact' happed outside of the area. Where the offence occured is up for debate. For me, the offence for a handball is where the ball is at the time of contact.*

Second point, email replies from IFAB don't carry as much weight anymore. We have seen the contradictory to laws or their own Q and A.

* Positioning of location of the offence has never changed for handball. A few years back offences outside of the FOP had a restart of dropped ball. Consider a scenario before that change. The ball is in play but partially outside the field of play. The part outside is deliberately touched by a player. The restart never was a dropped ball for it. The offence was in the field of play.
That was the full reply, hence my clarification question..
In your scenario the ball is handled whilst it is in play. The offence of handling the ball happens outside the field of play so a DFK from boundary line or PK if within PA boundary.
I think the principle changed when ifab introduced FKs to be taken from position of offence before that there were various locations of restart ranging for Poo, to position of ball to somewhere else.
Loaded question or not, unintentional and I was descriptive their reply is unambiguous and I would rely on it if I needed to
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
That was the full reply, hence my clarification question..
In your scenario the ball is handled whilst it is in play. The offence of handling the ball happens outside the field of play so a DFK from boundary line or PK if within PA boundary.
I think the principle changed when ifab introduced FKs to be taken from position of offence before that there were various locations of restart ranging for Poo, to position of ball to somewhere else.
Loaded question or not, unintentional and I was descriptive their reply is unambiguous and I would rely on it if I needed to
Are you saying their full reply was "correct".

That reply does not make sense for either of your questions which require a yes or no reply.

Question: "Is this permissable?"
Reply: 'Correct"

What does that mean? I think their clarification needs clarification (typical) :)

Edit: just saw your latest post. I stand by my last sentence.
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Are you saying their full reply was "correct".

That reply does not make sense for either of your questions which require a yes or no reply.

Question: "Is this permissable?"
Reply: 'Correct"

What does that mean? I think their clarification needs clarification (typical) :)
See above I hadn't actually shared the original reply 🙄
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Are you saying their full reply was "correct".

That reply does not make sense for either of your questions which require a yes or no reply.

Question: "Is this permissable?"
Reply: 'Correct"

What does that mean? I think their clarification needs clarification (typical) :)

Edit: just saw your latest post. I stand by my last sentence.

They answered correct to:
So does that mean, if the hand makes Contact with the part of the ball outside of the Penalty area a direct free kick should be awarded?
 

ChasObserverRefDeveloper

Regular Contributor
8@JamesL I believe in an attempt to remove confusion you may have made it clear as mud :)

I would like to put it in a different way. The position of the offence is where the restart is taken (except if offence is in goal area or outside of field of play). The position of offence is determined differently for different offences. This is mostly convention rather than spelt out in the book.

For example for most fouls with contact, the position of where first contact occured determines the restart. A continuous hold is a little complicated. If it starts or continues into PA then it's a pen.

For handball the position of the ball is the determining factor (not just a consideration). Position of the offender, his/her arm or the point of contact is irrelevant for restart. If at the time of contact any part of the ball is in the field of play, even if contact was outside the filed of play, it's a handball. If any part of the ball is inside the PA then it's a pen (no DFK or pen for goal keeper).

Keep in mind that line are part of the area they are a boundry for.

@Mr Dean I am fairly certain you are incorrect.
Thanks for helping here it’s much appreciated. You did better than The FA website! My take away learning is to bare in mind the penalty area ends at the outer edge of the white like. Not where I had put the ‘VAR” lines on the inside edge. Thanks again.

They answered correct to:
So does that mean, if the hand makes Contact with the part of the ball outside of the Penalty area a direct free kick should be awarded?
IMHO, if a member of the defending team handles the ball as described, i. e. their hand makes contact with the ball outside the penalty area, that is the moment the offence occurs so a direct free kick would be correct.
Without VAR the referee will get grief from one side or the other (or from both) and will make their decision based on:
1.Was there an offence?
2. If there was, where did it occur?
3. If contact was outside the area, d. f. k.
With VAR, this debate and an on field review would follow.
 
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