A&H

Penalty kick

Surely if the taker blasts it wide you just get on with the game?

I must get this talk every time I'm out with L3s, if it goes wide we are playing on regardless of any encroachment. I think it's good advice -why cause a rumpus for something no one will have noticed?
 
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Monotone Whistle said:
Surely if the taker blasts it wide you just get on with the game?

I must get this talk every time I'm out with L3s, if it goes wide we are playing on regardless of any encroachment. I think it's good advice -why cause a rumpus for something no one will have noticed?
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what's your get-out for when, in that very same situation, someone does notice and appeals? especially if its the penalty taker himself, would that not cause you issues either way? give it and you are reacting to an appeal... don't and you then have to fabricate something to explain why you havent dealt with something?
 
will check that out later when i can get access to video.... annoyingly cant watch at work... mind you theres probably a good reason theyve done that :)
 
Ganajin said:
I am afraid Mintyref's admission that he totally disregards the Laws of the Game I find neither amusing nor acceptable. This is not an inexperienced referee misunderstanding the Laws, or even an experienced ref playing with the grey areas that are left to his own judgement and ITOOTR. No, this is an brazen and unacceptable refusal to follow mandatory sections of the Laws. An attitude that causes impossible problems for referees who are trying to carry them out correctly. This smacks of an arrogant belief that this referee knows best, and can pick and chose how he implements the Laws. This is a disgraceful approach to refereeing, and in my opinion referees like Mintyref should be simply thrown out of the game which they are showing no respect for..
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Whilst I understand your frustration... "referees like Mintyref should be simply thrown out of the game which they are showing no respect for.."... I am regular contributor on a forum in Cornwall which all types of people from the football community voice opinions; referees, players, managers, spectators etc... I have seen more negativity on this forum today than I have seen on that one for months! We are bloody referees, upholders of the laws which govern the beautiful game. We are not gods!!! We are not above anyone else!!!!... Yet we act in a somewhat pathetic manner on this forum; we are supposed to be the "grown ups". Instead of saying nonsense like this, get your point across but in a manner in which it is actually going to benefit this person. Constructive criticism is such a better tool than out-right rudeness.

I see sense in what @Mintyref is saying. A £10 fine for taking a step forward before the ball is kicked... let's apply a bit of common sense. A player is about to take a free kick but puts his foot down and applies pressure to the ground where he is about to place the ball... would you caution? Player shouts "mine" or "leave it" as he challenges for a ball... would you caution? The good book says Yes, you should... but do we? I couldn't give a rats-arse about the backlash I'm opening myself up for, but I wouldn't, certainly not for a first offence. I don't particularly agree with how Minty has put his point across, but this is the Internet and text is not often easy to Interpret at the best of times

Cup final, game is 2-2 and the away teams star striker is on a yellow card. 10 minutes left and he challenges with a defender in the air... as he does, he shouts "mine"... in front of a large crowd, are you going to be that guy?? That's a big call!
 
richard ramjane said:
what's your get-out for when, in that very same situation, someone does notice and appeals? especially if its the penalty taker himself, would that not cause you issues either way? give it and you are reacting to an appeal... don't and you then have to fabricate something to explain why you havent dealt with something?
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Don't need one. He missed, goal kick and move on.

I can guarantee you'll cause more problems awarding a retake than you would just playing on. Even if people notice, it's an easy sell to say that as it's missed we just play on.
 
Good refereeing in the MLS video. Right to caution also.

I must agree with @Monotone Whistle about goalkeeper encroachment with ball going wide. Unless I as the refeee or an assistant feels that the kicker kicked the ball wide as a result of the encroachment, I would probably continue. If the encroachment is obvious for all to see and i believe it has played a part in the player missing, I'd make the call. Some encroachments are ludicrous. Last season, U18 cup final, I was the assistant at a penalty... twice I flagged for goalkeeper encroachment. One, he took three steps forward and saved. Second, the keeper was on the goal area line when the ball was kicked, ball went over the bar. That for me is close enough to order a retake. That only left a few years between kicker and goalkeeper. That would have certainly played a part In the takers miss. Keeper received a caution. Then saves superbly on the third attempt.
 
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DB said:
Whilst I understand your frustration... "referees like Mintyref should be simply thrown out of the game which they are showing no respect for.."... I am regular contributor on a forum in Cornwall which all types of people from the football community voice opinions; referees, players, managers, spectators etc... I have seen more negativity on this forum today than I have seen on that one for months! We are bloody referees, upholders of the laws which govern the beautiful game. We are not gods!!! We are not above anyone else!!!!... Yet we act in a somewhat pathetic manner on this forum; we are supposed to be the "grown ups". Instead of saying nonsense like this, get your point across but in a manner in which it is actually going to benefit this person. Constructive criticism is such a better tool than out-right rudeness.

I see sense in what @Mintyref is saying. A £10 fine for taking a step forward before the ball is kicked... let's apply a bit of common sense. A player is about to take a free kick but puts his foot down and applies pressure to the ground where he is about to place the ball... would you caution? Player shouts "mine" or "leave it" as he challenges for a ball... would you caution? The good book says Yes, you should... but do we? I couldn't give a rats-arse about the backlash I'm opening myself up for, but I wouldn't, certainly not for a first offence. I don't particularly agree with how Minty has put his point across, but this is the Internet and text is not often easy to Interpret at the best of times

Cup final, game is 2-2 and the away teams star striker is on a yellow card. 10 minutes left and he challenges with a defender in the air... as he does, he shouts "mine"... in front of a large crowd, are you going to be that guy?? That's a big call!
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Mintyref said:
Not really, most of the 'mandatory yellow's' don't happen on my pitch. I manage the situations, and the card comes out when it has to. Mostly, they listen and it rarely sees the light of day.
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@DB: I do not speak nonsense. Mintyref stated quite categorically that many mandatory yellows "don't happen" on his pitch. The word "mandatory" cannot be clearer. Several others queried if he meant what he seemed to be saying, and he spelled it out. This is in my mind against all the purpose of refereeing. By all means disagree with the Laws: just be sure to uphold them. Once referees start cherry picking which Laws they will implement and which they will ignore, all consistency disappears and we are left with chaos. And I do not appreciate the way you, DB, represented my arguments. "a ten pound fine for taking a step forward before the ball is kicked" plus other trifling Law breaches (player pressing down before taking a free kick, calling mine etc). This is called reductio ad absurdum: a very unfair way of arguing...presenting someone's opinion in an exaggerated way, then belittling him for that opinion. Let's be clear:

1 I would not sanction a goalkeeper for taking "a step" forward; this would be trifling. If they encrouch so that it has an effect on the game, and the taker misses; retake AND YELLOW CARD

2 A player putting pressure on the pitch at a free kick. Trifling. A keeper scratching out a furrow to mark centre of goal. YELLOW CARD

3 Player calling "mine" or "leave it". Unless it is done to verbally distract an opponent it is not only trifling...it is not even an offence. But if a player going for the ball shouts "mine" to actually distract an opponent...IFK and YELLOW CARD.

I emphasise this strongly: we are not here to jump on players for trifling offences! But neither are we here to ignore mandatory cautions. Mintyref could easily have said "unless I consider the encrouchment affected play, I will not sanction it". Instead he made it very clear that he will simply ignore many mandatory cautions. I applaud his honesty...but this is terrible refereeing, and throws huge problems in the way of referees who try to do the job as the Laws lay down. I am sorry if my position seems rude, but I restate it with full force. A referee who refuses to obey the Laws of the Game should not be permitted to referee at all.
 
Perhaps Ganajin, you and our level one or however high they go referees could follow suit by equally applying all the laws of the game.....including the one where the likes of Duane Wooney are dismissed for the offensive, insulting or abusive language they regularly scream into the faces of the referee or assistants......
I choose to manage some offences slightly differently because at parks level footie I understand that mandatory yellows are an anathema to players and their pockets. I do card for them but not without due warning......it works for me....
 
@Ganajin you are more than entitled to your opinion, as are we all; I respect that fact.

In my example I am merely describing the mandatory yellow cards in law that we often manage instead of throwing down a player's neck. When it comes down to it, a yellow card is a £10 fine. To me, I see it as a sanction. To them, it's a £10 fine. That's the reality of it and that's how I see it. If I can manage a situation instead of cautioning a player, I will because I see both sides of the coin; the players and the officials. So, that is me saying that marking the pitch, stepping off the goal-line and verbally distracting an opponent which are all mandatory cautions can be managed. In all cases where I have managed them, they get one bite of the cherry.

Now, when you get cautions such as AA, FT, HB etc, I would like to think my colleagues up and down the country would issue these cautions as and when they are needed. I must admit, I was also a little bit concerned about our colleagues' admission, particularly regarding how little the card comes out of the pocket. In my last five games alone I have racked up 12 cautions (4 in my last game alone), no reds thankfully. All cautions were for infringements which needed no managing or for infringements that I had previously warned about that, I felt needed to be made.

My comment regarding Minty, I am hoping that he is coming over wrong due to the text and the format as such, I'm hoping that in reality is is out there doing a job and not a disservice, not just for us as colleagues, but also to the game.

But, I absolutely stand by my original statement that we should not be making statements like the one you made. We are short enough as referees in this country as it is. We are getting shorter each week. We need them. For this gentleman, I would prefer to see a more constructive way to put your point across rather than going straight for the jugular.
 
DB said:
In my example I am merely describing the mandatory yellow cards in law that we often manage instead of throwing down a player's neck
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Again, as I said, I am not talking about trifling abuses of the Law, but outright breaking it. But when a referee says he "manages" a MANDATORY yellow card, that is sadly, fancy speech for ignoring what the Law says. Look at it this way: would any referee fail to send off a player for spitting in an opponent's face? Or head butting? (I sincerely hope not). Yet we apparently can downplay encrouchment. Who gave us the right to pick and chose which Laws we will follow and which ignore? And the trouble is,if we accept that right, every referee will chose different Laws to ignore and the game moves into confusion.

Mintyref said:
Perhaps Ganajin, you and our level one or however high they go referees could follow suit by equally applying all the laws of the game.....including the one where the likes of Duane Wooney are dismissed for the offensive, insulting or abusive language they regularly scream into the faces of the referee or assistants......
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But I do fully agree that referees should apply all Laws. But remember that in order to penalise for OFFINABUS a referee needs to find it offensive, insulting or abusive. Screaming angry swear words does not actually necessarily fall under that heading.. Here there is room for opinion. As I said I am all for allowing a fair amount of leeway .So by all means tell me the encrouchment was trifling or unimportant. But once you have accepted that a player has committed an offence, yet you still insist on "managing" the (mandatory) yellow card sanction - this is not an acceptable viewpoint.

I referee in Australia. When I started I had some firm ideas on how rules should be administered. I once argued strongly with our Ref Secretary at a coaching session that any ball going to hit a player in the face that he blocked with his hands should not be given as deliberate handling. He explained that may be true if the ball comes at speed from close by, but if it came from further away and he had time to avoid the handling, then we give the free kick. I carried on saying no; and he said: "I will not carry on discussing it, I am telling you what you will give". I smarted for a day, but then realised he was right. Without a consistent position, how can players ever know what to do?

I have tried very hard here to be neither nasty or bitchy (as I have seen many posts be), but I am sorry if I give offence by the utter clarity of my viewpoint. A referee (of ANY level) who claims that they can manage a game by choosing which Laws to ignore is not acceptable to me.

We many never agree on this point so let's just agree to differ.
 
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@Ganajin there's a huge difference between managing a situation and ignoring it :) I fully accept and appreciate your viewpoint. I however being a military man, I do not just punish those within my ranks that need to be punished. I also educate and point them in the right direction. I've learnt over my career so far that reaching straight for the whip is not the most constructive of ways to deal with situations, particularly where humans are concerned .
 
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Monotone Whistle said:
Surely if the taker blasts it wide you just get on with the game?

I must get this talk every time I'm out with L3s, if it goes wide we are playing on regardless of any encroachment. I think it's good advice -why cause a rumpus for something no one will have noticed?
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Depends on the amount of encroachment. We all have a certain level of tolerance - For me, there's more tolerance if it goes over the bar or straight to the keeper. But when the keeper's charged out 3-4 yards....or more.......
 
Monotone Whistle said:
Don't need one. He missed, goal kick and move on.

I can guarantee you'll cause more problems awarding a retake than you would just playing on. Even if people notice, it's an easy sell to say that as it's missed we just play on.
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yup ok, ive not had that situation yet.... let you know how i get on when i eventually do :)
 
Just about every penalty taken on TV you could make a case that the goalkeeper wasn't on his line. Physics and maths says that if you come out you narrow the angle, they teach them this at GK school... Unless its absolutely blatant blatant its absolutely NEVER given and even when its blatant i bet you can't find more than a few incidents where a keeper has been actually carded for it regardless of what the LOTG say. So if the top boys aren't doing it, its a shame that the keyboard weekend warriors are donning their face paint and manning the battle trenches against the Humber One!!
 
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I was thinking about those that are saying 'doesn't matter how much the keeper encroaches if the kicker misses'. Why?

I figure the argument is that because it hasn't affected the kick (are you sure it didn't put the kicker off?) - but does that mean you don't retake for encroachment by the other players? I mean, they could be level with the mark, but still not affecting the kick (unless the retrieve a rebounded ball). See my point?

Sheffields Finest said:
and even when its blatant i bet you can't find more than a few incidents where a keeper has been actually carded for it regardless of what the LOTG say. So if the top boys aren't doing it, its a shame that the keyboard weekend warriors are donning their face paint and manning the battle trenches against the Humber One!!
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It's only under the new laws that a card is required. So, I challenge you to find a case where it's retaken for keeper encroachment without a card. You won't.
Of course, if the keeper encroaches, and a defender has encroached, then you may be able to get out of booking the keeper.
As somebody else said, the card here is just going to make it less likely to order a retake for keeper encroachment. I mean, keeper already on a caution in a heated match? That keeper's going to be able to run out and forehead slap the kicker before anybody is thinking about pulling up that encroachment.

But if you retake for the keeper encroachment and you refuse to give that card, then hand your badge to your AR and walk off the pitch. It's a mandatory card. It's not your job to agree with it.
 
Which is why, as you say, a canny ref will find a defender to blame. Warn the keeper and hope he doesn't repeat the encroachment.
 
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