Penalty Kick Advantage?
- Thread starter @cheesefc
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one
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Ah but you can only caution the keeper if his offence results in the kick being retaken.
Anubis
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the correct position, is the position adopted to make the correct call
if you want to stand rigid in the stereotypical set up for a pk, great
i would go closer to the six, already have warned gk re his prev coming off line, warned gk am now focussing on his next move
prematch instructions usually contain something like, " if the gk clearly off his line and its got to be a retake and its credible etc etc etc"
if i then cant see it for myself, from a set play, from 6/7 yards away, its hardly a credible call,
after the first pk, and the flag, am now treating the second pk as if i dont have Ars
no way am simply standing there all day having retakes ' because my lino said so'
thats passing the buck, when as referee, am taking control
If you are watching the keeper who is watching the attackers/other defenders for encroachment?
Anubis
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who watches it when you are operating alone?
bear in mind you already now have the heads up the gk is going to be your issue
one
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Why do you think we have two eyes? You just have to learn how to use them independently
And don't forget watching the kicker for faking, double touch, etc.
Anubis
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in short, having taken the flag for the first one, ( bear in mind this game is not on tv where we can freezeframe it afterwards and prove the gk shoelace lett the line), credibility wise, its going to have to be obvious to all if the gk reoffends here
including obvious to a referee 6 yards away who is proactive and already penalised the gk for the first encroachment.
by some folks thinking here if we see gk off line as referee, we wont be giving it unless AR flags!
we already know we take to the pitch not being able to see everything that may happen, so if on this pk retake we need sacrifice x % viewing of folk coming into the box at the pk, in order to correctly and credibility wise assess the gk acts ( not ignore the other players entirely, just slightly less focus), then, so be it.
including obvious to a referee 6 yards away who is proactive and already penalised the gk for the first encroachment.
by some folks thinking here if we see gk off line as referee, we wont be giving it unless AR flags!
we already know we take to the pitch not being able to see everything that may happen, so if on this pk retake we need sacrifice x % viewing of folk coming into the box at the pk, in order to correctly and credibility wise assess the gk acts ( not ignore the other players entirely, just slightly less focus), then, so be it.
But that's what assistants are for. To assist you with that job.
If I'm not wrong I'm pretty sure the laws of the game gives that responsibility to the AR. Why are you negating your referee job of watching for encroachment and kicker offending to takeover a job that is assigned to the AR
So you have to trust his judgement. OK there are edge cases where we may not as much but in the main
Anubis
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so as I swung it full circle, you as ref see a gk 2/3 yards out at the kick
by your thinking, you cant/wont retake, as the AR is the one who will do gk off line
which of course is absurd.
the same principle applies in reverse
Well of course if I see it.
You've changed your line here though. A minute ago you were taking away that responsibility from the AR completely. And you were abdocating your other duties in favour of double handling keeper encroachment.
Anubis
RefChat Addict
its as ever maybe whats in my head is not the words exact as typed
can i change it to, am 95% focussing on gk at the 2nd kick and 5% the else
at the first kick am 50% to each
Russell Jones
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Whilst (as usual!) @Anubis is exaggerating for effect, there are, IMO, some valuable points in there worth thinking about ..
In my standard pre match instructions, I tell ARs that I want / need their input regarding GK encroachment on penalties ... but that I will make the final call to ensure it's the same at both ends of the FOP. That's easier to achieve because we are using buzzer flags so they can alert discretely rather than raising a flag (which it's tough to back away from!). Whilst it would be wonderful to 100% trust all the ARs appointed to your games, the reality is that some will be more experienced / better than others and having been previously 'bitten' by AR input on various KMIs (despite pre match instructions to the contrary!) I now believe it's better to be a little wary.
So, I agree with the thought about varying your position as referee for a PK retake. If nothing else, this emphasises to the GK that he/she is being watched even more closely and should act as a deterrent effect. And greater focus from me on GK movement (whilst not giving up on encroachment by other players) seems appropriate
In my standard pre match instructions, I tell ARs that I want / need their input regarding GK encroachment on penalties ... but that I will make the final call to ensure it's the same at both ends of the FOP. That's easier to achieve because we are using buzzer flags so they can alert discretely rather than raising a flag (which it's tough to back away from!). Whilst it would be wonderful to 100% trust all the ARs appointed to your games, the reality is that some will be more experienced / better than others and having been previously 'bitten' by AR input on various KMIs (despite pre match instructions to the contrary!) I now believe it's better to be a little wary.
So, I agree with the thought about varying your position as referee for a PK retake. If nothing else, this emphasises to the GK that he/she is being watched even more closely and should act as a deterrent effect. And greater focus from me on GK movement (whilst not giving up on encroachment by other players) seems appropriate
Anubis
RefChat Addict
next time, i will pm you my thoughts and you can phrase them to greater effect!
yes, you have made my post easier reading!
Nah, not having that. The AR is stood on the line to judge two things - ball over the line and GK encroachment. And as the referee, your responsibilities are outfield player encroachment and ensuring no illegal feinting/double touch of the actual kick. As referee, you need to position yourself with those responsibilities first, and "double-checking" your AR responsibilities as a distant second priority. So yeah, with neutral AR's, I'll be level with the ball, because that's the right place to be for the decisions I'm most responsible for.
If you're worried about your two AR's giving inconsistent results, then you need to be reviewing your pre-match spiel. I always frame GK encroachment in terms of who it's obvious to. If it's so obvious that the benches can see it, then we need to be giving it. If you as AR are the only person in the ground that thinks he might have drifted off his line a split second early, then leave it. It's an extension of the old "no surprises" refereeing principal - where it doesn't conflict with law, give the players the decision they expect and that makes sense to them, and you'll have an easier time.
If you're worried about your two AR's giving inconsistent results, then you need to be reviewing your pre-match spiel. I always frame GK encroachment in terms of who it's obvious to. If it's so obvious that the benches can see it, then we need to be giving it. If you as AR are the only person in the ground that thinks he might have drifted off his line a split second early, then leave it. It's an extension of the old "no surprises" refereeing principal - where it doesn't conflict with law, give the players the decision they expect and that makes sense to them, and you'll have an easier time.
Or a double touch by the taker.
I think @one has got the law explanations in order re: advantage etc.
But to answer, if the referee sees the flag, then he has to either be very quick on the whistle, or as in the later video you linked, hold it for a moment before making the call just in case.
I would also imagine, if you're in that situation again, when the ball is subsequently scored from the second hit, then if the referee hasn't blown the whistle, you put the flag down and signal goal. If you're absolutely concerned about it at that point, signal goal and then stand your ground to ask the referee to come over and chat with you - when you explain the situation, I'm sure they'll basically acknowledge it and play on - you can then thrash out the details in the changing rooms at half-time etc. This way, all the bases are covered, the best outcome is reached and you're both communicating and aware of the situation.
I think that would be the ideal route forward provided I'm not missing anything.
socal lurker
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one
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Yeap. I missed to highlight "the kick must be
taken;" for copying. Once the kick is taken, the ball is in play.