The Ref Stop

Penalty Kick Advantage?

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@cheesefc

New Member
Level 9 Referee
Greetings,
had a game today, running the line, and a PK was given. The first kick was saved (went out for a corner) by GK but both feet were beyond the line, I flagged, and so had to be retaken, and GK was warned. So PK was taken again, and the same happened, kick was saved, but both feet for GK were beyond the line, so I flagged again, however, referee didn't spot my flag, and the attacking team immediately (and I mean immediately, first kick following save) scored (then referee spotted my flag). Should the goal have been given, or should the penalty have been re-taken? I suppose we can apply a bit of common sense, and say, that this is similar to the scenario where a GK brings down the attacking player, but if there is another attacker with an open net then you would allow the chance for him/her to score, but I don't see where the LOTG allows this in the penalty case for an advantage. You can also say, that if the kick was re-taken following the attacking team scoring the rebound, and they missed that penalty, is this fair on them? I.e. would they rather have had the rebound goal, or another penalty kick, with the GK cautioned? I would just add, it was similar to this penalty (
see 3:12, though the goalkeeper was more off his line than the City goalkeeper in this video). My thanks for any views on this.
 
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The Ref Stop
@cheesefc said:
Goal... no-retake...
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Given the situation, I'd side with his decision.

He hadn't seen your flag and hadn't blown the whistle, and on the balance of the situation, it would have been crazy to disallow that goal, especially for match control.

Common sense wins the day etc.
 
The ball is in play when it is kicked and clearly moves.

If, before the ball is in play, one of the following occurs:

The goalkeeper or a teammate offends, ball goes in: goal. Doesn't: retaken.

Advantage: allows play to continue.

The law says a goal stands on an infringement, but there's no clarifying language whether it is the kicker only that counts or follow-up actions, which would show advantage applied.

Without the clarifying language, I see a YC (2nd time) and retake.

Interested if there is guidance on this. I like the goal counting via advantage applied.
 
RobOda said:
Given the situation, I'd side with his decision.

He hadn't seen your flag and hadn't blown the whistle, and on the balance of the situation, it would have been crazy to disallow that goal, especially for match control.

Common sense wins the day etc.
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Okay but what happens if he did see the flag? Should we allow a short advantage if it appears that a rebound can be scored (in which case keep the flag down for a few seconds)? Even though the common-sense position is to allow advantage, the LOTG don't allow this (that I can see)?
 
Tim - 2013 said:
The ball is in play when it is kicked and clearly moves.

If, before the ball is in play, one of the following occurs:

The goalkeeper or a teammate offends, ball goes in: goal. Doesn't: retaken.

Advantage: allows play to continue.

The law says a goal stands on an infringement, but there's no clarifying language whether it is the kicker only that counts or follow-up actions, which would show advantage applied.

Without the clarifying language, I see a YC (2nd time) and retake.

Interested if there is guidance on this. I like the goal counting via advantage applied.
Click to expand...
Okay, but what would have happen if the advantage didn't result in a goal? Re-take? What if the keeper had fouled the player on the rebound, two yellows? (one for being off the line and then for DOGSO but genuine attempt to play the ball)? Just seems that this might result in a can of worms being opened here...
 
I think the technically correct answer is probably a retake. But when I had this same thing happen (except it wasn’t the second offense), we did the same thing and allowed the goal to stand.
Anubis said:
All am saying is, if am reffing and you flag the second one, I hope you have an industrial tub of KY handy as that flag is about to go on an adventure....
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I see. So in your mind the warning to the GK actually means “Don’t worry, we won’t call it if you do it again.” A few years ago, I think it is true that we were expected to not notice these. But that time has passed. If the GK can’t learn from his mistake, then he should get a harsher lesson. I’m pretty sure I wouldn't ever want to be your AR.
 
socal lurker said:
I think the technically correct answer is probably a retake. But when I had this same thing happen (except it wasn’t the second offense), we did the same thing and allowed the goal to stand.

I see. So in your mind the warning to the GK actually means “Don’t worry, we won’t call it if you do it again.” A few years ago, I think it is true that we were expected to not notice these. But that time has passed. If the GK can’t learn from his mistake, then he should get a harsher lesson. I’m pretty sure I wouldn't ever want to be your AR.
Click to expand...

If as referee we are having a retake for gk off line, there is one person and one person alone deciding if the gk has come off his line the second time...
the referee.

oh and my Ars have the best afternoon ever, couple of flags when ball out of play, possibly giving an opinion on offside, and the least pressure they will have all season!
I do recall in 2003 I did take an Ars advice on a pk.....I think he retired after that as his career had peaked. But thats off topic
 
Anubis said:
If as referee we are having a retake for gk off line, there is one person and one person alone deciding if the gk has come off his line the second time...
the referee.

oh and my Ars have the best afternoon ever, couple of flags when ball out of play, possibly giving an opinion on offside, and the least pressure they will have all season!
I do recall in 2003 I did take an Ars advice on a pk.....I think he retired after that as his career had peaked. But thats off topic
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How can the referee decide this? He/she doesn't have the view that the AR has? By this logic why do we need ARs on this and offside, etc? How does this work:
 
socal lurker said:
I think the technically correct answer is probably a retake. But when I had this same thing happen (except it wasn’t the second offense), we did the same thing and allowed the goal to stand.

I see. So in your mind the warning to the GK actually means “Don’t worry, we won’t call it if you do it again.” A few years ago, I think it is true that we were expected to not notice these. But that time has passed. If the GK can’t learn from his mistake, then he should get a harsher lesson. I’m pretty sure I wouldn't ever want to be your AR.
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Fair enough, and yes...
 
Anubis said:
If as referee we are having a retake for gk off line, there is one person and one person alone deciding if the gk has come off his line the second time...
the referee.

oh and my Ars have the best afternoon ever, couple of flags when ball out of play, possibly giving an opinion on offside, and the least pressure they will have all season!
I do recall in 2003 I did take an Ars advice on a pk.....I think he retired after that as his career had peaked. But thats off topic
Click to expand...


Ahh. I see. You know better than the magic book that expressly instructs the AR to raise the flag when the GK infringes. You know, the guy standing on the goal line to watch exactly two things during the PK.And no, I would have no interest in ARing for someone who treats ARs with so little respect. “Possibly” giving an opinion on OS!?!?

I can see I made a mistake in taking you off my very short ignore list. while you occasionally post something interesting, your offensive and snarky posts greatly outnumber the useful ones.
 
JamesL said:
Goal for me.

Can I ask how far off the line the keeper was?
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Far enough to be in violation of LOTG, I mean if they are off by 1cm, then really not going to penalise, but at least half a foot to a foot length off the line both times.
 
@cheesefc said:
Far enough to be in violation of LOTG, I mean if they are off by 1cm, then really not going to penalise, but at least half a foot to a foot length off the line both times.
Click to expand...
I'll be honest, 15 cm, I wouldn't want it. But, yes you were correct.
 
Anubis said:
If as referee we are having a retake for gk off line, there is one person and one person alone deciding if the gk has come off his line the second time...
the referee.

oh and my Ars have the best afternoon ever, couple of flags when ball out of play, possibly giving an opinion on offside, and the least pressure they will have all season!
I do recall in 2003 I did take an Ars advice on a pk.....I think he retired after that as his career had peaked. But thats off topic
Click to expand...

Disagree totally. That just says you aren't a team player and don't trust the ARs to make the calls that they are expected to make. At a penalty if all officials are in the correct position there is only one of them that can decide if the keeper has come off the line before the ball is kicked, and it most certainly isn't the referee. You can of course give pre-match instructions regarding penalties, but you certainly can't take encroachment off of ARs.
 
Law 14: "Once the referee has signalled for a penalty kick to be taken," the ball is now in play.

Law 5: "the referee" "allows play to continue when an offence occurs and the non-offending team will benefit from the advantage,..."

Note the law 5 application supercedes any other situation when referee is required to stop play (unless specifically stated). So there is no requirement for law to say, play advantage here or there in specific situations. It's already covered in law 5 quote, which also includes penalty kicks.

So ball is play, an offence has been committed and the non-offending team benefits from continuing. Play advantaged and allow the goal. For me this is both the common sense answer and the by the book answer.

The only variation would be if the keeper is already on a yellow. What is now beneficial, retake and one less opponent or goal against 11 opponents? A lot of factors involved for this decision, the score at the time, minute of the game etc. However I think you can't go wrong with allowing the goal. It's the least risky decision and everyone would/should be happy with it.

On the AR signal, I would wait the extra second even if I see it. I would still want him to signal. It would make selling my decision easier whichever I go.
 
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