Penalty at the very end

[one]

To be clear I am not arguing against the common sense of a few seconds extra. I have done many times and not just for penalties. I have even had coaches approaching me asking if the goal was scored after time was up, "not according to my watch.". I don't get much argument after that.

 

[santa sangria]

Fair enough. Just I only ever recall our friend one posting about the no added time. Still don't think it is coherent with lotg.

Modifications in LotG.
Added time is not mentioned but it’s common sense with no subs at grassroots in hobby leagues with short duration matches

 

[GraemeS]

This is one where I depart slightly from the consensus, depending on how much time is left when I call the PK. The LOTG tell us exactly how to handle a PK if time expires before it is taken--the kick ends the game.

But the laws also tell us that time should be added on to compensate for "any other cause, including any significant delay to a restart". So unless the penalty is taken relatively quickly (ie. no opposing player disputes), you should usually be re-adding the time that is spent setting up the kick. The flaw in your argument is the idea that it's possible for time to expire while the kick is being set up.

If there are 10 second left to play when you blow to give the penalty, 99% of the time, there should be 10 seconds left at the point where you blow to instruct a player to take the kick. And that's enough time to require you to allow any rebounds, or to enforce a restart - be that GK, Kick Off or some other IFK/retake due to an offence while the penalty is being taken.

 

[RustyRef]

Definitely don't recommend this. It can get you into trouble. Defenders have the right and CAN legally stop a goal from being scored in the OP scenario. Just tell them you extending time to complete the penalty.

I'm curious, how can they stop a goal if there are no rebounds? It either goes in, at which point the game is over, or it is saved or misses the target in which case the game is immediately over.

 

[GraemeS]

I'm curious, how can they stop a goal if there are no rebounds? It either goes in, at which point the game is over, or it is saved or misses the target in which case the game is immediately over.

I guess he's thinking of the classic example where a keeper makes a save, runs off celebrating but the ball is still moving and spins towards the goal. We've all seen the videos of this happening in a penalty shootout, but having it happen on a "last kick" penalty does make it even more complicated.

As if it was a penalty shootout, I think you'd be incorrect to stop play before the outcome of the penalty is certain - ie. until the ball has stopped moving, is out of play/in the goal or is clearly not going in because it's been fully cleared. But you have the added wrinkle of the fact that in a "last kick" penalty, is the defence entitled to get involved and stop that spinning ball? And/or, is the PK taker or another attacker entitled to get involved and "shield" the ball into the goal?

 

[Yampy]

But if you really are insistent on it being the last kick of the game you have to tell the players, you might as well tell them to not bother lining up on the edge of the area as they would be wasting their time.

Wouldn't this be the best method to communicate your decision? Tell the players "go to the centre circle, socially distanced of course, your game/half is over, I only need the GK and kicker to sort this out". Everyone trudges to the middle and the message to the technical area and supporters is fairly clear.

 

[socal lurker]

But the laws also tell us that time should be added on to compensate for "any other cause, including any significant delay to a restart". So unless the penalty is taken relatively quickly (ie. no opposing player disputes), you should usually be re-adding the time that is spent setting up the kick. The flaw in your argument is the idea that it's possible for time to expire while the kick is being set up.

If there are 10 second left to play when you blow to give the penalty, 99% of the time, there should be 10 seconds left at the point where you blow to instruct a player to take the kick. And that's enough time to require you to allow any rebounds, or to enforce a restart - be that GK, Kick Off or some other IFK/retake due to an offence while the penalty is being taken.

This is simply wrong. The LOTG are not American high school soccer where the clock stops for a PK. We don't add all time that it takes for a PK during the game, and that doesn't change just because the PK was given in the final seconds of the game. The Laws intend added time for, as you quote, "any significant delay to a restart." Taking 10 seconds for a PK is not a significant delay--it would be an extraordinarily fast restart. Rather, the Laws explicitly provide what is supposed to happen if time expires during the ordinary time it takes to set up a PK: the game is extended solely for the purpose of taking the PK, with no follow up. If you are going to add time to permit rebounds because you think it is the right thing to do for game management, etc., you certainly have the power to do so. But don't pretend that the Laws dictate that the same amount of time should remain after the PK is kicked as when the foul was called. That just isn't so. (And if you actually believed this, you would be adding the entire time it takes for every PK in a game to be taken, and once you're doing that, for every FK, etc.)

 

[socal lurker]

Definitely don't recommend this. It can get you into trouble. Defenders have the right and CAN legally stop a goal from being scored in the OP scenario. Just tell them you extending time to complete the penalty.

I'm going to quibble a bit about how you said this, though we might be saying the same thing. I agree you should not tell players where they should be on the field (as I've heard some foolishly recommend in other places), but I think you need to go a bit farther and be clear what it means that it is extended to complete the penalty--that no one can play rebounds when the kick is taken.

To be clear I am not arguing against the common sense of a few seconds extra. I have done many times and not just for penalties. I have even had coaches approaching me asking if the goal was scored after time was up, "not according to my watch.". I don't get much argument after that.

I agree with this. The R is the time keeper and once we are adding time, no one knows exactly when time is up except the referee. (This was actually easier in the old days when we didn't tell anyone how much time we were adding, but it still is true as what we tell them is the minimum being added.)

 

[Justylove]

Not much different to what you do if an attacker is through on goal, rounds the goalkeeper and is just about to roll the ball into the empty net when your watch beeps and you blow the whistle.

Technically absolutely bang on in law, but I think even the most grizzled observer would likely have something to say if you did that.

Reality is in the OP we're talking seconds here, not half a minute or so. Ball Rebounds, rebound is either scored, saved or goes out. At that point you blow the whistle (or let the opposition kick off before blowing up).

 

[JamesL]

I'm going to quibble a bit about how you said this, though we might be saying the same thing. I agree you should not tell players where they should be on the field (as I've heard some foolishly recommend in other places), but I think you need to go a bit farther and be clear what it means that it is extended to complete the penalty--that no one can play rebounds when the kick is taken.



I agree with this. The R is the time keeper and once we are adding time, no one knows exactly when time is up except the referee. (This was actually easier in the old days when we didn't tell anyone how much time we were adding, but it still is true as what we tell them is the minimum being added.)

I mean really, if you read the law it's absolutely crazy.
Yes extend until the penalty kick is completed. Easy.
Penalty is complete when ball stops moving goes Out of play or Played by another player, incl kicker excl keeper.
I mean the law clearly intends that if that play happens to slam the ball in the back of the net, no goal is awarded as the penalty is complete and therefore the game concluded.
Insane for match control but the law around extending game for PK is very clear.

 

[socal lurker]

Wouldn't this be the best method to communicate your decision? Tell the players "go to the centre circle, socially distanced of course, your game/half is over, I only need the GK and kicker to sort this out". Everyone trudges to the middle and the message to the technical area and supporters is fairly clear.

Absolutely not. You have no authority to dictate to players where they stand during the game. And the game is extended for the PK. While it is mostly* pointless to stand there, the players are entitled to stand on the edge of the PA if they wish. If you tweak it to something more along the lines of "It's just the kick, gentlemen, no rebounds. You might as well back off as you can't do anything," then I think it makes sense.

_______
*I say "mostly" because there is a theoretical advantage to defenders lining up and running in. If there is one of those quirky saves where the ball starts rolling back and potentially into the goal, a defender touching the ball would end the game. And if that defender accidentally plays the ball into the goal, you have a real mess, as everyone thinks it's a goal but the game ended when the defender touched the ball. (Which, I suppose, is another argument for those who avoid these like the plague.)

 

[GraemeS]

This is simply wrong. The LOTG are not American high school soccer where the clock stops for a PK. We don't add all time that it takes for a PK during the game, and that doesn't change just because the PK was given in the final seconds of the game. The Laws intend added time for, as you quote, "any significant delay to a restart." Taking 10 seconds for a PK is not a significant delay--it would be an extraordinarily fast restart. Rather, the Laws explicitly provide what is supposed to happen if time expires during the ordinary time it takes to set up a PK: the game is extended solely for the purpose of taking the PK, with no follow up. If you are going to add time to permit rebounds because you think it is the right thing to do for game management, etc., you certainly have the power to do so. But don't pretend that the Laws dictate that the same amount of time should remain after the PK is kicked as when the foul was called. That just isn't so. (And if you actually believed this, you would be adding the entire time it takes for every PK in a game to be taken, and once you're doing that, for every FK, etc.)

Define significant, or point me to a section of the laws that does so?

Assuming you are unable to do so, we have to accept that this is at the referee's discretion. And if it's a tight game (ie. anything we're discussing actually matters), I can make a pretty strong case that any time wasting or other delays in the last 5-10 minutes of the game have the potential to be significant. A potentially match-deciding penalty? Pretty significant IMO.

 

[JamesL]

Absolutely not. You have no authority to dictate to players where they stand during the game. And the game is extended for the PK. While it is mostly* pointless to stand there, the players are entitled to stand on the edge of the PA if they wish. If you tweak it to something more along the lines of "It's just the kick, gentlemen, no rebounds. You might as well back off as you can't do anything," then I think it makes sense.

_______
*I say "mostly" because there is a theoretical advantage to defenders lining up and running in. If there is one of those quirky saves where the ball starts rolling back and potentially into the goal, a defender touching the ball would end the game. And if that defender accidentally plays the ball into the goal, you have a real mess, as everyone thinks it's a goal but the game ended when the defender touched the ball. (Which, I suppose, is another argument for those who avoid these like the plague.)

Second this.. The law is clear about what constitutes a penalty completing. That is when the ball stops moving, goes out of play, or is played by a player, Inc the kicker excl the goalkeeper.
So that means players must be afforded an opportunity to end/complete the kick, as you point out intervene if the ball has back spin and is trickling over the line, playing the ball completes the kick and as per law 14 game is concluded.
I do however side with not creating problems for oneself, and I am sure if faced with any such event I'd perhaps allow an additional couple of seconds (rightly or wrongly) if the very next kick is a goal, and I haven't blown to indicate full time yet, then I can't see how disallowing it would play out

 

[socal lurker]

Define significant, or point me to a section of the laws that does so?

Assuming you are unable to do so, we have to accept that this is at the referee's discretion. And if it's a tight game (ie. anything we're discussing actually matters), I can make a pretty strong case that any time wasting or other delays in the last 5-10 minutes of the game have the potential to be significant. A potentially match-deciding penalty? Pretty significant IMO.

I think you are twisting language because you want to get to a result. The drafters of the Laws, for better or worse, very clearly envision that time expires between the time a PK is called and the kick is taken. If you're going to just add more time for a rebound, just do it and admit you're doing it because that's the way you think it should be and you think you get match control that way.

If I were going to parse your argument, I would point out that if you are adding the full time it takes to take a PK in the waning moments, the same reasoning applies to the time lost for each FK, TI, etc. I would point out that the language in Law 7 is not just "significant," but "significant delay," and that certainly implies more than just the normal time it takes to conduct a restart. I would point out that "time wasting" is completely different from the natural time to take a PK and has nothing to do with this discussion. And I would point out that "potentially match-deciding penalty" is a non sequitur, as the Laws, without twisting, provide that the PK is taken, and it is only the rebound that we are talking about.

If, ITOOTR, when the foul is called there is time to take a PK before time expires, then I fully agree that under the Laws any lost time is significant and should be added to allow for the rebound. And I fully agree that, if it's close, any error should favor permitting the rebound. But where it is clear that there is no way that a PK could be taken in the time remaining, then I think, under the Laws, the referee is obligated to use the specific procedure in Law 14. Of course, as the sole time keeper, the referee has the power to do whatever he wants. My core point is that if are referee extends for a rebound when there was no chance of a PK being completed before time expired, the referee is bending/breaking the Laws because he disagrees with the Laws or is doing it because he thinks it is worth doing for game management. When we do things like that, I believe that we owe it to ourselves to be honest about what we are doing.

I'm going to drop from this thread as I've said all I have to say. Cheers.

 

[one]

I'm going to quibble a bit about how you said this, though we might be saying the same thing. I agree you should not tell players where they should be on the field (as I've heard some foolishly recommend in other places), but I think you need to go a bit farther and be clear what it means that it is extended to complete the penalty--that no one can play rebounds when the kick is taken.

Reciprocally I'm going to quibble a bit about how you said this. Don't be factually incorrect and mislead them by saying they can't play the rebound. This helps the attackers as the defenders think they shouldn't touch the ball. You can say anyone playing the rebound completes the penalty and ends the game. This of course helps the defenders by telling them what they can do. I'd stick with telling them I'm extending the game to complete the penalty .

 

[Peter Grove]

Define significant, or point me to a section of the laws that does so.

It may not be defined but the law definitely mentions the word significant

Allowance is made by the referee in each half for all time lost in that half through:
[...]
any significant delay to a restart

 

[Ben448844]

Aside from the points already made, why cause yourself so much ****?