Overruling a CAR on in/out of play

[GraemeS]

So, I had a fun one yesterday - orange v red (not a kit clash before anyone asks as the red kit was fairly dark and the orange kit was bright!). Red are winning comfortably at this point, but things are a little tense as I've just sent a player of theirs off for 2xcautions and there are about 15 mins left, so a comeback is in the air.

Ball is played through past red's left winger and up their left touchline. At a point about 25 yards into the orange half, he reaches the ball as it's just about to roll out, takes a few touches and continues down the line.

By this point, I've moved to a position only slightly behind him and about 10 yards out from the touchline. From this position, although it's close, it appeared to me that the ball hadn't fully crossed the line, so I don't blow my whistle and instead shout "He's kept it in!". However the CAR further down this line has put his flag up for the throw - and the orange RB lets the attacker get past him easily thinking it will be brought back.

I stick with my guns and inevitably, the attacker puts in a cross which is scored from. Defending team are furious, CB talks his way into a dissent caution before the captain even has a chance to get back and calm him down. I agree to go and speak to the assistant - I think at the time I might have considered going back for the throw if the CAR (who would have been disallowing the goal his team just scored) had said it was a long way out. However he says that he thought it just went out, so I explain that it didn't look like it from my angle and the goal stands.

Could I have dealt with this better? In retrospect, it would have been a much easier decision to just give the throw, as it certainly wouldn't have led to that level of disagreement. And even if I technically have the right to overrule a CAR, how credible am I in doing so from that position?

 

[Nalbi]

Hmmm a tough one indeed, especially given the outcome of this decision. So if we check the rules, the final decision always always rests with the referee; therefore even in the hypothetical case of a NAR you are fully within your right to wave them down and let play carry on! Now the tricky bit, if you were in a better position to call it then yes you're fully justified to your decision. You did the right thing initially by shouting ball still in play, I would have shouted that once more and even louder when that flag went up if you are sure about the decision (it sounded like you are).
This is a usual problem when we talk about expectations, so it comes down to your pre-match talk with the CARs and the captains. You can have the captains present when you do your pre-match briefing to the CARs so they are aware of the responsibilities you have given them.
That being said, with NAR I would be careful about overruling them like that. You have to be 100% sure about you saw/didn't see or else you risk losing your match control and credibility as a team. Also you did the right thing by going over and talking to the CAR and sounds to me like you made the 'right call' based on the information they provided you with.

 

[OIREF!]

Obviously I wasn't there but your position was not so far away so if you felt that the ball was still in play you were correct to continue. Perhaps if you felt that the CAR was credible and he/she had said that the ball was definitely over the line rather than he/she 'thought it was just out' and you might have decided differently.

 

[Padfoot]

Once you have decided it didn't got out, and indicated that by your shout.....going over to consult the CAR is pointless....you've already overruled them so if you consult then change your mind, especially disallowing a goal in the process, you will have shot massive holes in your credibility.

If you were closer, and had a better view, you are credible in the overrule.....

 

[Brian Hamilton]

Unless you're occupying the same point in time and space as your CAR, don't overrule them unless it's a glaring error. You've only given them one job after all...

 

[santa sangria]

From the NAR perspective, if I've learned one thing doing a lot of games as a NAR: it can only end badly for the ref if you overrule on ball in/out. TBH it can also only end badly overruling on direction of throw. If you've got experienced NARs, in situations where for whatever reason, or due to timing, the AR has got the flag up one way or the other, you have to be 200% as a ref if you overrule, otherwise it looks double bad. (Of course, ideally you signal together but you know, there are times...)

 

[RustyRef]

Unless you're occupying the same point in time and space as your CAR, don't overrule them unless it's a glaring error. You've only given them one job after all...

Completely agree, unless you are actually right out on the touchline, or the flag is so ridiculously wrong, I wouldn't be overruling if we are talking about millimetres.

 

[UKColt]

Completely agree, unless you are actually right out on the touchline, or the flag is so ridiculously wrong, I wouldn't be overruling if we are talking about millimetres.

I agree with this. If the assistant flags it has gone out then I'm going with them every time, unless it's absolutely clearly wrong. Not sure what you say to CARs in pre-match, but I always say the one thing I want them to absolutely focus on is ball in and out of play. If I then overrule them on marginal calls, my match control would be shot.

 

[Paul March]

If he is attacking down the left wing, then did the assistant flag against his own player? Or did you have the assistants on the right backs?

If he has gone against his own player you have a get out of jail free card

 

[GraemeS]

If he is attacking down the left wing, then did the assistant flag against his own player? Or did you have the assistants on the right backs?

If he has gone against his own player you have a get out of jail free card

Yes, as it turned out he would have been flagging to disallow a goal his team scored. As far as I could tell, he was roughly in the right position, but because it was a quick ball forward, he was probably a good 30-40 yards away from the place where the ball went out - wheras I was maybe 15 yards at most, but at an angle.

 

[Nalbi]

Yes, as it turned out he would have been flagging to disallow a goal his team scored. As far as I could tell, he was roughly in the right position, but because it was a quick ball forward, he was probably a good 30-40 yards away from the place where the ball went out - wheras I was maybe 15 yards at most, but at an angle.

Lesson learnt for the future my friend, unless you are absolutely sure that they got it completely wrong; you go with the AR decision. Helps with your match control and their as well as your credibility!!

 

[Padfoot]

If you are 15 yards away, closer than the CAR and, in your opinion, the ball didn't go out of play....overrule away.....don't compound an error by a CAR by making one of your own.

If players can't, or won't, accept/understand that is ultimately your decision, then you have cards to deal with the more enthusiastic complainers.

However.....if the AR is neutral then you would have be 110% sure they had made an error before overruling because the implications of overruling another qualified official are wider than the ones for overruling someone who has reluctantly "agreed" to run the line because they are too fat/slow/pissed/lazy etc to be on the pitch...........

 

[Nalbi]

If you are 15 yards away, closer than the CAR and, in your opinion, the ball didn't go out of play....overrule away.....don't compound an error by a CAR by making one of your own.

If players can't, or won't, accept/understand that is ultimately your decision, then you have cards to deal with the more enthusiastic complainers.

However.....if the AR is neutral then you would have be 110% sure they had made an error before overruling because the implications of overruling another qualified official are wider than the ones for overruling someone who has reluctantly "agreed" to run the line because they are too fat/slow/pissed/lazy etc to be on the pitch...........

I couldn't agree more with Paddy on this one!!

 

[Tino Best]

If you are closer than a CAR and you are sure I would over rule by the distances it sounds like you made the right decision. With NARs I would have have gone with them because the decision will always be made with complete honesty, yes we can all make mistakes on the line but if we do we have no emotional tye to the mistake. But as with NARs they would not be 40 yards from the ball and you probably would not be as close. When in the middle with NARs my angles change from when I have CARs.

 

[GraemeS]

If you are closer than a CAR and you are sure I would over rule by the distances it sounds like you made the right decision. With NARs I would have have gone with them because the decision will always be made with complete honesty, yes we can all make mistakes on the line but if we do we have no emotional tye to the mistake. But as with NARs they would not be 40 yards from the ball and you probably would not be as close. When in the middle with NARs my angles change from when I have CARs.

To be honest, my assumption was that he didn't know the "whole of the ball over whole of the line" aspect and therefore flagged with a ball still overhanging the line. I don't think his position was actually that poor, given that he was still roughly in line with the last defender and this incident actually occurred a way up the pitch from that point.

But yeah, agree that I wouldn't have done the same with NARs I don't think, even if they were in the same position.