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Offside when ball comes from opponent

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spuddy1878

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Still an area of concern for me, still a new referee this season so in early stages.

I get the offside law 97 ish%, i get the interference with an opponent, gaining an advantage etc but do have concerns what is correct when ball hits opposition player last.

The Brighton v Everton goal here 1m 25s in i get as its come from a Brighton corner hence cant be offisde, if that had came from a free kick and same incident happens what is the outcome.

https://highlightsfootball.com/video/brighton-hove-albion-vs-everton-highlights/

Does it matter if Gomes (Everton player) has played the ball deliberately (he hasn't here) or not, would it be a different outcome ?

EDIT - After a look through some diagrams its a bit clearer, im thinking if its from a free kick it would be chalked off as the Brighton player/players are looking to gain an advantage which i think is the key word in all this.
 
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Just a note - you can’t be offside from the original kick on a corner but as soon as the ball has been played again (like in this case), you can be!

You’re right about the outcome though, even if it was a corner, if he is adjudged to have deflected the ball rather than deliberately played it, it’s offside
 
alexgr said:
Just a note - you can’t be offside from the original kick on a corner but as soon as the ball has been played again (like in this case), you can be!

You’re right about the outcome though, even if it was a corner, if he is adjudged to have deflected the ball rather than deliberately played it, it’s offside[/QUOTE]

Are you saying (without being a mind reader) the officials in this incident believe Gomes deliberately tried to play the ball ?
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It is not always easy, and there has been many a discussion on here about it.

Lets look first at the Brighton goal.

When the corner is played, all players are onside, no other Brighton player touches the ball before the goalscorer, so he is onside, goal stands. Had the ball been headed back into the six yard area by a Brighton player (rather than Everton's Gomes), the striker recieving the ball would have been offside at this point, hence the goal wouldn't have stood. The Assistant Referee flags when ball is in net - I suspect that he is flagging because he is unsure whether the ball was played back in by an Everton or Brighton player. Referee & Assistant confer, agree ball played back in by Everton, therefore not offside, goal stands. Good teamwork from "the team of three" to arrive at the correct decision.

Had it been a free kick (from the same place) & not a corner, it will still be a goal as the Brighton goalscorer was not offside when the kick was taken.

Were it gets more complicated is when the receiving player is in an offside position, but a defender touches the ball before he receives it.

Imagine the scenario, reds attacking white defending.

Working from halfway line towards white goal, the only players in the half are: Red on halfway line (could be free kick, could be open play, makes no difference), then a white defender, then red attacker, then white goalkeeper. i.e. red attacker is in offside position.

Red on halfway has ball, passes to teammate, red collects - offside.

Red on halfway has ball, passes to teammate, white defender leaps & heads ball (or makes any attempt to play ball) making contact with it, but ball still runs onto to red attacker who collects, shoots, scores - Not offside, goal.

Red on halfway has ball, passes to teammate, ball hits/skims white defender, making no attempt to play the ball. Ball still runs onto to red attacker who collects, shoots, scores - Offside, no goal.

Red on halfway line shoots, white keeper saves, but doesn't hold onto the ball. Red attacker runs on to loose ball who collects, shoots, scores - Offside, no goal.

In summary - a deliberate play/action by a defender (except for a save - which, confusingly can also be from a defender not just a keeper) resets "offside" and no-one can be offside again until the ball is played again by an attacker.

I hope that has given you some clarity?
 
alexgr said:
Just a note - you can’t be offside from the original kick on a corner but as soon as the ball has been played again (like in this case), you can be!

You’re right about the outcome though, even if it was a corner, if he is adjudged to have deflected the ball rather than deliberately played it, it’s offside
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Alexg - apologies if I have misread your post but in THIS case it does NOT matter if ball is deflected or not as no other Brighton player apart from the corner kick taker has touched the ball. As Jeff has said the ball could deflect off two or three Everton players and the Brighton player, in this instance, would not be offside.
 
spuddy1878 said:
Still an area of concern for me, still a new referee this season so in early stages.

I get the offside law 97 ish%, i get the interference with an opponent, gaining an advantage etc but do have concerns what is correct when ball hits opposition player last.

The Brighton v Everton goal here 1m 25s in i get as its come from a Brighton corner hence cant be offisde, if that had came from a free kick and same incident happens what is the outcome.

https://highlightsfootball.com/video/brighton-hove-albion-vs-everton-highlights/

Does it matter if Gomes (Everton player) has played the ball deliberately (he hasn't here) or not, would it be a different outcome ?

EDIT - After a look through some diagrams its a bit clearer, im thinking if its from a free kick it would be chalked off as the Brighton player/players are looking to gain an advantage which i think is the key word in all this.
Click to expand...

New ref here too pal, will give my thoughts.

Think of this scenario as 2 phases of play.

1. Corner taken - impossible to be offside.

2. Next touch - opposition plays ball forward - forget play 1 -attacker not offside as hasn't touched another attacking player before the attacker scores.

That's how I'd look at it. Hope it helps.

Edit - You're correct about the FK scenario, as that would be one phase of play to me, as you can be offside from the start. So yes, it would be offside imo as he's in an attacking position when the ball is played to the area he's in.

It's a difficult one, that no referee will ever get right every time, from a FK.
 
PinnerPaul said:
Alexg - apologies if I have misread your post but in THIS case it does NOT matter if ball is deflected or not as no other Brighton player apart from the corner kick taker has touched the ball. As Jeff has said the ball could deflect off two or three Everton players and the Brighton player, in this instance, would not be offside.
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Oh apologies, thought a Brighton player had headed it, then an Everton player had too. You’re right!
 
So it didn’t matter in this scenario at all whether Gomes played the ball deliberately or not because it’s from a corner.
 
spuddy1878 said:
So it didn’t matter in this scenario at all whether Gomes played the ball deliberately or not because it’s from a corner.
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Correct - In this incident it makes no difference whether Gomes played the ball deliberately or not as the Brighton player was on onside when it was last played by another Brighton player. (In this case he was onside because you can’t be offside from a corner, but had it been a freekick (from same spot) he would still have been onside as he was behind the ball when it was played.)
 
While there are complex cases of offside, it's simple in this case or any other case if "when the ball is last touched by a team mate" the player is not in an oddside position. Then there can't be an offside offence.

The AR was correct to raise flag because he was not sure if "the last touch by a team mate" was the corner kick or if some other team mate had touched it after that. Then it's up to the referee to make a decision based on that.
 
Law 11 - Rule 1 - Apply common sense
There's no VAR below Step -3 (hypothetical step ;)), so I wouldn't get overly involved in the old 'play or save' business
 
RefJef said:
Correct - In this incident it makes no difference whether Gomes played the ball deliberately or not as the Brighton player was on onside when it was last played by another Brighton player. (In this case he was onside because you can’t be offside from a corner, but had it been a freekick (from same spot) he would still have been onside as he was behind the ball when it was played.)
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Just to change it slightly then, free kick right on touch line 30 yards out, and a Brighton player standing offside position, if ball comes in and

A) he scores NO GOAL as OFFSIDE

B) ball hits Gomes accidentally and he scores NO GOAL gaining advantage.

C) Gomes makes attempt to play ball mis kicks striker scores GOAL (deliberate play)

Have I just confused things more ?
 
spuddy1878 said:
Just to change it slightly then, free kick right on touch line 30 yards out, and a Brighton player standing offside position, if ball comes in and

A) he scores NO GOAL as OFFSIDE

B) ball hits Gomes accidentally and he scores NO GOAL gaining advantage.

C) Gomes makes attempt to play ball mis kicks striker scores GOAL (deliberate play)

Have I just confused things more ?
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B) Is a goal - if it has been established that Gomes DID NOT play the ball deliberately ('gaining advantage' only applies to woodwork and saves)
My interpretation would be that Gomez DID play this ball deliberately because of the distance the ball travelled (and this is the interpretation football would expect)
 
Big Cat said:
B) Is a goal - if it has been established that Gomes DID NOT play the ball deliberately ('gaining advantage' only applies to woodwork and saves)
My interpretation would be that Gomez DID play this ball deliberately because of the distance the ball travelled (and this is the interpretation football would expect)
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I was moving goal posts slightly to try and clarify, meant if you thought yourself that the ball hit him accidentally (no attempt to play it)
 
spuddy1878 said:
I was moving goal posts slightly to try and clarify, meant if you thought yourself that the ball hit him accidentally (no attempt to play it)
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The wording of the Law is confusing, so much so that some discussions on here have gone on endlessly
For me, it's easier to think about the 'spirit of the law' in this case. The ball can't travel 40 yards, hit the defender and in doing so, 'reset the offside'
Whilst we do need to know the detail of this Law, I fancy it's better to instinctively give 'what football expects', rather than wrestle with detail when distracted and tired. Imagine trying to explain the intricacies of this Law to an average chump of a defender :confused:
 
Big Cat said:
The wording of the Law is confusing, so much so that some discussions on here have gone on endlessly
For me, it's easier to think about the 'spirit of the law' in this case. The ball can't travel 40 yards, hit the defender and in doing so, 'reset the offside'
Whilst we do need to know the detail of this Law, I fancy it's better to instinctively give 'what football expects', rather than wrestle with detail when distracted and tired. Imagine trying to explain the intricacies of this Law to an average chump of a defender :confused:
Click to expand...

I did, League leaders, they weren't a happy bunch!! ;)
 
spuddy1878 said:
After a look through some diagrams its a bit clearer, im thinking if its from a free kick it would be chalked off as the Brighton player/players are looking to gain an advantage which i think is the key word in all this
Click to expand...
Just so we're clear - there is nothing in the offside law about "looking to gain an advantage." There is only:
gaining an advantage by playing the ball or interfering with an opponent when it has:
• rebounded or been deflected off the goalpost, crossbar, match official or an opponent
• been deliberately saved by any opponent
Click to expand...

I don't think this is as complicated as you're trying to make it. If a player was onside at the time of the last touch by a team mate (including from a corner) then any subsequent touch by an opponent is irrelevant - the player is not offside. If the player was offside when the ball was last played by a team mate (including from a free kick) and the ball is subsequently touched by an opponent, you just have to decide whether that touch was a deflection, rebound or deliberate save (which doesn't negate the offside) or a deliberate play which does.

Now admittedly, the distinction between a deflection and a deliberate play can sometimes take us into debatable territory but other than that, the actual mechanics of it are fairly straightforward IMHO.
 
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The most confusing part about offside at the moment for me, is interfering with play via challenging.

There was an incident I vaguely remember last month in the Premier League that caused it.

Player was miles offside, ball goes to the corner flag, defender picks it up, offside player goes to challenge/intercept. When does he stop being offside and it becomes a new phase of play? Can he intercept the clearance from the defender? Can he challenge?

My instinct was that he was still offside until the defender moves the ball towards the half-way line, but if he does and its intercepted isn't that an entirely new phase of play? I'm probably overthinking it.
 
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