Notts Forest Vs Arsenal

[Anubis]

just on this, a few years ago man city drew burton in the league cup semi final and VAR was sorted for the game at Burton, so it shows it can be done and they would, i presume, do it again if something similar happened in either cup comp

Was unaware so indeed yes. With that background then you could indeed set a round, I take that thought back

 

[Big Cat]

just on this, a few years ago man city drew burton in the league cup semi final and VAR was sorted for the game at Burton, so it shows it can be done and they would, i presume, do it again if something similar happened in either cup comp

They probably did this using a Satellite News Gathering truck. One of those with a dish on the roof. Although this would need the video feeds to be heavily compressed and delayed by approx. 3 to 4 seconds, glass to glass... which would cause comms issues and workarounds

 

[es1]

They probably did this using a Satellite News Gathering truck. One of those with a dish on the roof. Although this would need the video feeds to be heavily compressed and delayed by approx. 3 to 4 seconds, glass to glass... which would cause comms issues and workarounds

still, can be done

the game itself was a non event though with no VAR inputs required, unfortunately i guess, to allow the system to be properly tested

 

[one]

In not sure you appreciate what it takes to keep a VAR system in working order (and in compliance with the technical specifications).

Grounds with VAR systems that are going to be used during the season have to go through fairly thorough, time-consuming and relatively costly checking and calibration procedures before the beginning of the season.

Then they have to be re-checked (albeit in a less in-depth procedure) before each game. If faults or mis-calibration are found, those issues have to be rectified.

All the equipment, manpower, time and logistics needed for the pre-season and pre-game checks are allocated and budgeted for the teams in the Premier League only.

The resources needed to do it for teams outside the EPL are just not in place, and can't suddenly be implemented overnight for one-off games like FA cup ties.

The teams you mention may possibly still have some of the equipment left over from when they were in the Premier League (or they may have disposed of it, for instance by selling it to newly-promoted clubs). However even if they do I can pretty much guarantee you that they're not going to be spending the time, effort and especially money to keep it ready for use, when it's not a requirement for the league they're in.

Is there calibration needed for anything else apart from line drawing for offside?

Is line drawing for offside mandatory?

If the answers are no and no, then a no frills version VAR can be used for any televised game. This was one of the main reasons why the protocol requires on field officials to make a decision before any review.

To be clear I am not saying VAR should be used. Just saying it is possible.

 

[GraemeS]

Is there calibration needed for anything else apart from line drawing for offside?

Is line drawing for offside mandatory?

If the answers are yes and no, then a no frills version VAR can be used for any televised game. This was one of the main reasons why the protocol requires on field officials to make a decision before any review.

To be clear I am not saying VAR should be used. Just saying it is possible.

I think having the line-drawing tech in place is considered mandatory in England, although the VAR doesn't have to use it if a decision is considered clear without.

The logic behind that is that as camera angles can be deceptive, it's better to have the on-field decision stand (right or wrong) than it is to introduce a VAR procedure, slow the game down and then quite possibly get the wrong answer regardless.

Obviously this is an FA thing rather than IFAB, as I know the MLS uses VAR without line-drawing tech, nut I think once the lines have started being used, they become a part of the process that can't just be dropped.

 

[one]

I think having the line-drawing tech in place is considered mandatory in England, although the VAR doesn't have to use it if a decision is considered clear without.

The logic behind that is that as camera angles can be deceptive, it's better to have the on-field decision stand (right or wrong) than it is to introduce a VAR procedure, slow the game down and then quite possibly get the wrong answer regardless.

Obviously this is an FA thing rather than IFAB, as I know the MLS uses VAR without line-drawing tech, nut I think once the lines have started being used, they become a part of the process that can't just be dropped.

I actually think not having line drawing is better and less time delays. Have a look at what's available with whatever camera angle, if the infield AR's / R decision is not clearly wrong, stick with it.

It terms of line drawing being mandatory preventing use of VAR, it doesn't make sense to me. So the FA is saying we can't use VAR because line drawing is mandatory and we can't do it for this ground. Who made line drawing mandatory? The FA!

 

[GraemeS]

I actually think not having line drawing is better and less time delays. Have a look at what's available with whatever camera angle, if the infield AR's / R decision is not clearly wrong, stick with it.

It terms of line drawing being mandatory preventing use of VAR, it doesn't make sense to me. So the FA is saying we can't use VAR because line drawing is mandatory and we can't do it for this ground. Who made line drawing mandatory? The FA!

Honestly, I think a huge amount of the fuss that resulted in VAR being introduced can be traced back to people (up to and including Sky and MOTD) drawing dodgy inaccurate lines on camera stills taken from an angle.

Everyone thinks they're able to "compensate" for the camera angle in their head, but it's actually incredibly hard to do. And what you're then effectively doing is allowing someone to use a not-in-line still to overrule an AR who probably actually was in line, and who's eye doesn't have the issues with frames that a camera does. Without lines, the solution is worse than the problem there for me.

 

[RustyRef]

just on this, a few years ago man city drew burton in the league cup semi final and VAR was sorted for the game at Burton, so it shows it can be done and they would, i presume, do it again if something similar happened in either cup comp

That was right in the early days and I seem to remember they still had a mobile VAR unit from the initial testing.

 

[RustyRef]

Until there is a round where all can use it, normally QF, definitely SF as it's at Wembley, I agree. All or none.
But why just PL grounds?
Fulham, Sheffield United, WBA, Bournemouth - all clubs that were very recently in Premier League, all used VAR then. But can't now. They have the capabilities so why not?

They won't leave expensive leased network lines in place when a team gets relegated, rather will terminate the lease and transfer it to a promoted team. You can't operate VAR over the club's broadband connection, it needs specialist equipment that can take months to get installed.

 

[cwyeary]

Everyone thinks they're able to "compensate" for the camera angle in their head, but it's actually incredibly hard to do. And what you're then effectively doing is allowing someone to use a not-in-line still to overrule an AR who probably actually was in line, and who's eye doesn't have the issues with frames that a camera does. Without lines, the solution is worse than the problem there for me.

You see it every weekend. Pundits call out the AR for delaying the flag on a clear offside and by the time you add in lines, you will find out they might have been on.

 

[socal lurker]

Everyone thinks they're able to "compensate" for the camera angle in their head, but it's actually incredibly hard to do. And what you're then effectively doing is allowing someone to use a not-in-line still to overrule an AR who probably actually was in line, and who's eye doesn't have the issues with frames that a camera does. Without lines, the solution is worse than the problem there for me.

From watching the MLS Week in Review discussions of VAR for the past couple of years, I think you are empirically wrong as to what happens without lines (at least if properly implemented). What we see actually happen in MLS is that on the calls that can't be discerned with certainty is that the call on the field stands. The VARs are trained on that and are comfortable saying that they can't conclusively determine the OSP decision was wrong, so it stands. I don't recall a OSP decision that was incorrectly reversed. (I'm not promising there were none, but if there were any, they have been very rare.) And it means there are not toe-nail reversals of on the field decisions.

 

[Mooseybaby]

Interesting comments from Chesterfield's chairman expressing his shock of the FA's £9000 per game cost of VAR, which is split equally between the 2 teams and deducted from gate receipts.

 

[cwyeary]

Interesting comments from Chesterfield's chairman expressing his shock of the FA's £9000 per game cost of VAR, which is split equally between the 2 teams and deducted from gate receipts.

I saw this too. What would be the match fees for a VAR, AVAR, and a couple of technicians? 2000 at most? Where does the other 7k go in an already built facility with stadiums already set up for VAR?

 

[Max2]

I saw this too. What would be the match fees for a VAR, AVAR, and a couple of technicians? 2000 at most? Where does the other 7k go in an already built facility with stadiums already set up for VAR?

Shatterproof rulers. 10 for £2.99 in Ryman. Just enough for one offside decision every 45 seconds from August to May.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

I saw this too. What would be the match fees for a VAR, AVAR, and a couple of technicians? 2000 at most? Where does the other 7k go in an already built facility with stadiums already set up for VAR?

I don't know the answer, but would hazard a guess that it would also be used to amortise the purchase/replacement/ checking/servicing of the kit at the ground and Stockley Park, plus a contribution towards the running costs at Stockley Park (in expensive West London) and possibly a contribution towards FA running costs.

 

[Big Cat]

Shatterproof rulers. 10 for £2.99 in Ryman. Just enough for one offside decision every 45 seconds from August to May.

View attachment 5390

Need a flat screen Tele tho. I've still got a CRT

 

[JamesL]

I saw this too. What would be the match fees for a VAR, AVAR, and a couple of technicians? 2000 at most? Where does the other 7k go in an already built facility with stadiums already set up for VAR?

I suspect that is the cost of implementation divided by the number of (expected) games than more of an actual cost per game.

That said there are more than juts the refs to consider, there will be on call technicians (potentially just present rather than on call), suspect there will be a dedicated network security team, a technology specialist or two and probably loads more people I can't think of

 

[PinnerPaul]

In not sure you appreciate what it takes to keep a VAR system in working order (and in compliance with the technical specifications).

Grounds with VAR systems that are going to be used during the season have to go through fairly thorough, time-consuming and relatively costly checking and calibration procedures before the beginning of the season.

Then they have to be re-checked (albeit in a less in-depth procedure) before each game. If faults or mis-calibration are found, those issues have to be rectified.

All the equipment, manpower, time and logistics needed for the pre-season and pre-game checks are allocated and budgeted for the teams in the Premier League only.

The resources needed to do it for teams outside the EPL are just not in place, and can't suddenly be implemented overnight for one-off games like FA cup ties.

The teams you mention may possibly still have some of the equipment left over from when they were in the Premier League (or they may have disposed of it, for instance by selling it to newly-promoted clubs). However even if they do I can pretty much guarantee you that they're not going to be spending the time, effort and especially money to keep it ready for use, when it's not a requirement for the league they're in.

All fine Peter, but if that's the case then surely all matches WITHIN THE SAME round of a competition should have the same technology (or lack of)?

At present before the draw a team could be playing with GLT, or GLT and VAR or just the usual 3 idiots and their dodgy eyesight!

 

[RobOda]

The other 7k pays for the electricity, given the energy price crisis right now.