Neymar disallowed goal
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The Bstard
Active Member
Me. Never in a million years a handball.
ladbroke8745
RefChat Addict
I agree. Thought it was a good, legitimate, goal.
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
Errr, that's not the way the Law works Callum. Just because you gain an advantage from the ball hitting your hand doesn't make it handball ....
David Kelly
DK
Hi, personally it's a tough one to call, it's the AAR who has the best view, there is a glancing header, hard to notice in real time, ball then hits neymars' hand, which takes the ball beyond Buffon. If the ball hadn't of hit neymars hand it would have gone out for a goal kick. As we have the benefit of replays, we can see the ball hits neymars' head before it hits his hand. Would the AAR have seen the header in normal play? Hard to say. Neymar should have made more of a contact with the ball. The fact he didn't and then the ball hits his hand, leads the AAR thinks it's a hand ball.
If we are going by the LOTG, the ref/AAR needs to take in consideration the movement of the hand towards the ball, when considering a deliberate hand ball. The hand comes up, due to Neymar running, is it in an natural/unnatural position. For me, it's a natural position, Neymar is running, he can't control his hands.
But because we have the benefit of replays and AAR doesn't, I am going with the AAR in this case.
If we are going by the LOTG, the ref/AAR needs to take in consideration the movement of the hand towards the ball, when considering a deliberate hand ball. The hand comes up, due to Neymar running, is it in an natural/unnatural position. For me, it's a natural position, Neymar is running, he can't control his hands.
But because we have the benefit of replays and AAR doesn't, I am going with the AAR in this case.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Callum,
It doesn't matter what the outcome is - all that matters is whether it's deliberate. The LOTG says 'deliberately handles the ball', not 'deliberately handles the ball, or benefits from an accidental handling of the ball'. Whether or not the foul has occurred isn't changed upon seeing the outcome. Therefore, accidental handling, no matter what, is not a foul.
A lot of referees will penalise accidental handling if it benefits that player - and too many high level referees as well (heck, I know of one top-level referee down under that thinks a player handling the ball just because he falls with his arm outstretched is a foul!!!).
I'm going to describe 2 scenarios I've ha:
1) Crowded penalty area, attacker has his arms down by his side. Ball is bouncing around, he loses sight, ball comes from behind, hits his arm, drops to his feet. He turns, sees the ball at his feet, kicks the ball and scores.
- Natural position, and no opportunity to react. Therefore, it was clearly accidental.
-He gained the biggest possible benefit from the accidental handling. But, doesn't matter. It was accidental - what happens after that moment of contact with the arm is irrelevant.
-Therefore, I allowed the goal. But I have no doubt a lot of referees would have disallowed if, following your line of reasoning. My decision was correct.
2) Completely open goal, keeper nowhere near. Ball bouncing somewhat slowly into the goal. Defender is sprinting across to the left, almost right on the line. He is just about to reach a position to be able to clear the ball, when the ball hits a divot and suddenly and significantly changes direction. The ball was probably about a yard away from the player at the time, and it bounced significantly to the right. As the defender was sprinting, one arm was behind his body, and the ball struck this arm and stopped dead.
-The player was sprinting across, so it's natural for the arm to be behind his body in a running motion. The ball suddenly changed direction and did it so close to the player that he had no opportunity to react. The player didn't move the arm to the ball or hold his arm at all. Therefore, it was completely accidental and unavoidable
-He gained the biggest possible benefit from the accidental handling. But, doesn't matter. It was accidental - what happens after that moment of contact with the arm is irrelevant.
-However, I awarded a penalty kick without sending off the player. I reasoned that given the nature of the benefit it was only fair to award the PK, but I couldn't send the player off for what was clearly accidental.
-In doing so, I managed to get the same decision wrong twice. Accidental is accidental - the penalty kick was incorrect. The fact that a goal was denied was just luck. But, having awarded the PK, I needed to send him off
-I reasoned that it was unfair to have the goal denied by accidental handling, but this is incorrect. Accidental handling is an unavoidable part of the game. Fairness isn't an issue.
But I have no doubt many referees would have awarded the PK and the RC.
The AAR is there for decisions just like this one. I thought Neymar's hand twitched upwards as he headed the ball and that may have been construed as a deliberate action by the AAR. Maybe stuck to the old adage, better a disputed disallowed goal than a disputed goal.
deusex
RefChat Addict
For me, this was never handball in a million years.
The fact the referee failed to caution Neymar said it all, he knew in his heart that it was not a deliberate attempt to score with his hand and should have been allowed.
Pretty sure the referee also failed to caution Neymar after he removed his shirt which topped off a disappointing night for the officials
The fact the referee failed to caution Neymar said it all, he knew in his heart that it was not a deliberate attempt to score with his hand and should have been allowed.
Pretty sure the referee also failed to caution Neymar after he removed his shirt which topped off a disappointing night for the officials
Defintely a handball for me although "deliberate" is so difficult to judge. Neymar is in a position to control the ball. The fact that he fails to do so and the ball comes off his head onto his arm means that the handling of the ball is a consequence of his own actions. For me this satisfies the "deliberate" criteria.
deusex
RefChat Addict
By that logic I assume you are (incorrectly) penalising players when the ball deflects of their own thigh/knee/shin and hits their arm, even though it has been blasted at them at 100mph?
deusex
RefChat Addict
Got to agree with Brian. If in doubt, rule it out. I know that it's very close to where he headed it and whatever, but whose hand naturally goes up towards their face when they header it? Mine doesn't.
Are you implying Neymar deliberately raised his hand in anticipation of the 0.000000000000000001% chance it deflected of his head onto his arm and in? I hope you would also have the courage of conviction to caution Neymar (unlike the actual ref)
Probably a lot more likely he did it do aid his balance, like many footballers do every week.
Absolutely not! The ball was not blasted at Neymar from close range. The cross came from some distance and Neymar was relatively unchallenged as he attempted his header. In this scenario the fact that he (mis)controlled the ball onto his arm is his fault and makes it "deliberate" enough for me to disallow the goal.
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
I'm with OIREF!
Neymar has mis(controlled) the ball was his arm into the net. And it looked awkward in real time and in slo mo. Deliberate is a terrible choice of wording. In a court you are never going to prove Neymar acted deliberately, even with Ming's truth machine. Neymar will never admit to anything deliberate and any talk of subtle movements of the body is just opinion. In the case I think the possibility that the wee fella has maximised his chances of getting the ball in the onion bag with the positioning of his whole upper body (which would explain the poor header) gives enough grounds to classify it as deliberate.
Above all. Respect for our colleague. That is the first time I have seen the 5th official be any use!
Neymar has mis(controlled) the ball was his arm into the net. And it looked awkward in real time and in slo mo. Deliberate is a terrible choice of wording. In a court you are never going to prove Neymar acted deliberately, even with Ming's truth machine. Neymar will never admit to anything deliberate and any talk of subtle movements of the body is just opinion. In the case I think the possibility that the wee fella has maximised his chances of getting the ball in the onion bag with the positioning of his whole upper body (which would explain the poor header
) gives enough grounds to classify it as deliberate.Above all. Respect for our colleague. That is the first time I have seen the 5th official be any use!
one
RefChat Addict
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2syp98
I think your percentage of the chance is a bit skewed there
. Naymar knew he is heading the ball downwards (see the motion and the direction of his head at the time) yet he is bringing his arm right in front of it. Yes it could have been for balance but for me players must take reasonable actions to avoid hand/arm contact with the ball. Its a little similar to when a defender jumps to header a cross with arms spread to assist the jump but knowing full well there is a good chance the ball may hit their arm instead of their head.Having said that in the same clip, a Juve defender puts his arm behind his back to avoid the ball in the cross. That for me is unnecessary and beyond reasonable action rqeuired.