Newcastle vs Liverpool

[Russell Jones]

@DavidObs as 4O and @Runner Ref as VAR sharing the love

Can I be Reserve AR, can I, can I, pretty please

 

[DavidObs]

Someone has to do the games. Has Hooper developed well or has Kavanaugh's development stalled and some of the older refs are starting to be phased out? We can't possibly know if they actually like him, or if they're running out of options they do like and he's the least worst of what's left.

I understand the thinking behind a high bar, and accept that it's great when it works out. But I've said before that I've run lines for refs who try to do a high bar, and if the game starts to get rough, it's a complete lottery trying to work out when they want a foul and when they don't. Because at some point, they'll go "oh ****, this is slipping away from me" and try to regain control, but you never know when that's going to happen or if they're even capable of holding a consistent low bar once they do decide to move to that.

That's what I see in Hooper. If you have two teams that want to play football, he's a great ref for fading into the background and only giving what's necessary in order to let the game flow. But in games where it gets rough, you sometimes just don't know what you're going to get from him.

But it shouldn’t be a lottery. There is nothing wrong with the philosophy (Step of football/level of Referee dependant). Allow the game to breathe as much as able to, but if one or both teams are shown to be overly aggressive, then to reign it in - but consistently so & if it is shown that can let the reigns off in total or in part then to do so - but being watchful that may need to reign in again. To be able to do this at the top level (or at any level) requires skill. Sounds to me (because I haven’t seen the game) that Hooper had the best intentions but didn’t always get it right. Question is - how many PL Referees would have got it right. I suspect not many & probably none on this forum (though I stand to be corrected).

 

[RefereeX]

probably none on this forum

This is the key factor for me. This is why I don't like to sit and criticise premier league referees. They were once in the same shoes I'm in now, but clearly they were more successful than me, and that's not usually without reason. If I think a decision is wrong, I'll call it out as such, but I'm not going to criticise their general refereeing.

 

[DavidObs]

Yes. There were two mass cons at the end of the game, and a mini-mass-con following the foul that led to Gordon being sent off at the end of the first half. Gravenburch also got pushed and shoved a bit in response to the tackle he got booked for early on, so I would say that's a pretty consistent pattern throughout the whole game that he failed to stop.

I might be hyper-aware as a Liverpool fan, but a) Newcastle are a fairly physical team regardless and b) they were particularly hyped up for this game due to the Isak saga. If there's one game where starting loose is a failure of your pre-match scouting, it was this one.

I would not say it was a failure in his pre-match, but the execution was not as successful as it should have been.

 

[GraemeS]

But it shouldn’t be a lottery. There is nothing wrong with the philosophy (Step of football/level of Referee dependant). Allow the game to breathe as much as able to, but if one or both teams are shown to be overly aggressive, then to reign it in - but consistently so & if it is shown that can let the reigns off in total or in part then to do so - but being watchful that may need to reign in again. To be able to do this at the top level (or at any level) requires skill. Sounds to me (because I haven’t seen the game) that Hooper had the best intentions but didn’t always get it right. Question is - how many PL Referees would have got it right. I suspect not many & probably none on this forum (though I stand to be corrected).

It shouldn't, of course. And yet, every time I see someone set out trying to be lenient and it doesn't work, it becomes a lottery. I think it's a flawed philosophy, at every level of football.

Having watched the game, my feeling is that there are other officials in the league who would have booked at least one of the player who kicked Gakpo in the head or Tripper for either a reckless foul or for the cynical foul that followed almost immediately after in the first 5 minutes. I know MO can't do Newcastle matches, but he's a great example of an official who's big strength is taking context and game time out of a decision to make the right call on incidents in isolation.

And I think that an early yellow might (yes, might) have had an effect on what players thought the referee was going to let them get away with, and either reduced the ridiculous first half foul count, or caused one of the two nasty later tackles to not occur. Clattering into players late had become de jure - I suspect Gordon was marginally surprised to even see a yellow come out! We talk about officials having an effect on player behaviour, of getting control of games. If we truly believe that is possible, that is exactly what we are trying to do, and it's exactly what didn't happen here.

I would not say it was a failure in his pre-match, but the execution was not as successful as it should have been.

Why isn't it a failure in pre-match? 8pm, a routinely physical Newcastle team at a noisy St James Park, against a team they feel have wronged them off pitch? If pre-match was anything other than "we need to go hard early to get control of this boys", it was the wrong pre-match.

 

[DavidObs]

It shouldn't, of course. And yet, every time I see someone set out trying to be lenient and it doesn't work, it becomes a lottery. I think it's a flawed philosophy, at every level of football.

Having watched the game, my feeling is that there are other officials in the league who would have booked at least one of the player who kicked Gakpo in the head or Tripper for either a reckless foul or for the cynical foul that followed almost immediately after in the first 5 minutes. I know MO can't do Newcastle matches, but he's a great example of an official who's big strength is taking context and game time out of a decision to make the right call on incidents in isolation.

And I think that an early yellow might (yes, might) have had an effect on what players thought the referee was going to let them get away with, and either reduced the ridiculous first half foul count, or caused one of the two nasty later tackles to not occur. Clattering into players late had become de jure - I suspect Gordon was marginally surprised to even see a yellow come out! We talk about officials having an effect on player behaviour, of getting control of games. If we truly believe that is possible, that is exactly what we are trying to do, and it's exactly what didn't happen here.


Why isn't it a failure in pre-match? 8pm, a routinely physical Newcastle team at a noisy St James Park, against a team they feel have wronged them off pitch? If pre-match was anything other than "we need to go hard early to get control of this boys", it was the wrong pre-match.

I’m afraid I disagree with your view/quote about pre-match - what does that actually mean - flag for everything/I will caution everything!!. You make some valid points concerning other Referees and Oliver, Taylor & Gillett may have looked to caution players along the lines you suggested.

 

[Big Cat]

I don't know why this game has prompted such an inquisition
Hooper did OK in what was an intense encounter. Yes, he bored the sh1t out of everyone by wasting 5 minutes or so overall at CKs, but that's not his fault. FIFA insisted on this years ago at a World Cup and we've all wrongly been awarded credit for doing so ever since. It's a scourge on the game, dreamt up by top level suits who are responsible the overall state of refereeing, but it's not of Simon Hooper's making

Konate should have been sent off. However, if he had been, we may not have appreciated the black'n'white team spirit involved in the comeback.
On occasion, the Newcastle Team are ferocious to a level I don't think I've seen at St James'. Eddie Howe is the best manager we've had in my lifetime
I was disappointed for the players because of the late goal, but it's not lost on me that we're very fortunate to have this group of players and coaching staff at our club. Absurdly, their work culture is the antithesis of the Isak saga. It was truly shameful that he (Isak) wasn't involved in this team effort. Money can't buy what the rest of that dressing room has in their locker

One thing regarding Hoops. He writes in a YELLOW book (on paper). The book itself is the yellow card. Wonder where I could get one of those from

 

[GraemeS]

I’m afraid I disagree with your view/quote about pre-match - what does that actually mean - flag for everything/I will caution everything!!. You make some valid points concerning other Referees and Oliver, Taylor & Gillett may have looked to caution players along the lines you suggested.

I think it means giving a yellow card when a player is kicked in the head 5 minutes in rather than trying to "manage" it.

 

[GraemeS]

I don't know why this game has prompted such an inquisition

I honestly don't either! I've given some fairly benign observations (a missed early yellow might have changed the temperature of the match if given, the missed red card on-field might correlate with the referee's obvious determination to have a high foul tolerance) and I get argued with constantly. If this "As Seen on TV" forum isn't here for feedback on referee performances, I'm not really sure what it exists for?

 

[Paul_10]

I honestly don't either! I've given some fairly benign observations (a missed early yellow might have changed the temperature of the match if given, the missed red card on-field might correlate with the referee's obvious determination to have a high foul tolerance) and I get argued with constantly. If this "As Seen on TV" forum isn't here for feedback on referee performances, I'm not really sure what it exists for?

As a football fan watching the game whilst having a casual eye on the referees performance, I think his tolerance on when to book players was fine. Whilst there was some needle at times(no doubt hyped up by the crowd and the lead up to the game), I don't think how Hooper refereed the game was alot different to most SG1 refs in all fairness and he never lost control.

The dissapointing thing for me in terms of the refs performance is just not seeing Gordon tackle for what it was, just too quick to get the yellow out perhaps in response to Gordon and Kerkez squaring up after it but probably also the same old argument of safe refereeing and VAR will intervene if it was worse than I thought it was.

 

[RustyRef]

I think it means giving a yellow card when a player is kicked in the head 5 minutes in rather than trying to "manage" it.

Still yet to see any confirmation as to whether he was actually kicked or the foot was just high. And I still find it very hard to believe that a Premier League player felt a foot on his head and didn't go down rolling around holding his head.

 

[RustyRef]

As a football fan watching the game whilst having a casual eye on the referees performance, I think his tolerance on when to book players was fine. Whilst there was some needle at times(no doubt hyped up by the crowd and the lead up to the game), I don't think how Hooper refereed the game was alot different to most SG1 refs in all fairness and he never lost control.

That's where I'm at, I have no dog in the race as a neutral and I didn't think he ever looked like he about to lose control. Yes, he let what could have been potential cautions go early on, as most EPL referees do, but then there was a blatant act of SPA that he had absolutely no option but to caution for. As an observer, and if he had lost control, I might be looking to him perhaps letting too much go, and therefore potentially taking a risk, at the start of the game as being causation. But he didn't lose control, he didn't even come close to doing so.

I'm a WhatsApp group with a lot of my football mates, they are usually quick to criticise referees but they were full of praise for Hooper, including the Newcastle and Liverpool fans in there.

 

[GraemeS]

Still yet to see any confirmation as to whether he was actually kicked or the foot was just high. And I still find it very hard to believe that a Premier League player felt a foot on his head and didn't go down rolling around holding his head.

I don't know what lack of reaction you're imagining, or why you can only possibly accept a world where every footballer simulates injury every single time, but he was absolutely down on the floor needing time to recover.