Exactly Mr.Factly.
Misapplication of Law
- Thread starter RichardRef
- Start date
socal lurker
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When I'm doing games that have the possibility of PKs, I always have my ARs instructed to make sure that the players stay on the field and the subs stay off. Of course, this is hard to do if you don't have NARs. (And its also easier in most of the games I do because the teams are on opposite touchlines so each AR has just one team to deal with.)
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
In grassroots rolling subs cup matches with penalties - a few years ago our FA saved us from this - so that any player or sub could take penalties and the takers did not need to be listed to or by the referee beforehand. Far less hassle. Far quicker. The caretaker wants to go home and turn the lights off!
RichardRef
New Member
Sounds problematic especially if we get through 11 takers. Do we then need to go through all the subs or can one of the first 11 kickers take again as per LOTG? What did the FA rule?
We don’t need to know the takers beforehand as per standard law.
How did they manage that when it totally contradicts law? What happens if one team has only 1 sub and the other has 5, if it goes full circle that means that the team with less subs get a huge benefit?
As others have mentioned, your best hope when on your own is to ask both managers to ensure the remaining 22 at the end of full time/extra time (depending on competition rules) stay on the FOP before pens.
Any advice on what to do if you ask them to do so but they don’t? You can’t really go around waving yellows at people who walk off/come on. It’s tough!
Any advice on what to do if you ask them to do so but they don’t? You can’t really go around waving yellows at people who walk off/come on. It’s tough!
Joe Harrison
Member
Six years ago, as a young and inexperienced 19 year old Level 6, I middled a Sunday League cup semi-final in Sheffield. No AR's available. Game was filmed by Kit Locker, sidelines were chaos and both teams combined made over twenty substitutions (estimate around 23-27). Multiple players came on and off, twice.
Could see the game was going to penalties, and conscious I did not have a clue who was on the FoP, just before the second half of extra time started, spoke to both teams and noted down the numbers of players on the FoP.
I then proceeded to record the six substitutions conducted in the 2nd half of ET.
Looked super untidy, but the best situation imo, as recording over twenty subs (on my own) would have slowed the game down far too much and would have definitely 'annoyed' both teams.
Did not stop some attempted shirt swapping antics by the home team after the final (extra time) whistle though.
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one
RefChat Addict
So is every free kick being direct. Or team with less cards or most corners wins the game in case of draw at full time.
Though not supported by laws some associations/FAs still do it. And it doesn't help referees like the one in the OP who probably learned to referee in your FA.
If the FAs are making it up, why can't the referee?
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Calm down!So is every free kick being direct. Or team with less cards or most corners wins the game in case of draw at full time.
Though not supported by laws some associations/FAs still do it. And it doesn't help referees like the one in the OP who probably learned to referee in your FA.
If the FAs are making it up, why can't the referee?
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
I am in another country where football culture is different and we have a lot more rolling subs at grassroots and up into more serious leagues than the UK and have had for decades.
Penalty shoot outs in grassroots cup competitions and end of season playoffs are incredibly rare. It’s up to the referee to monitor the number of kickers and that players don’t take twice etc.
The reality is that a 15-14 penalty shoot out with one team on 15 players and the other on 17 never happens.
Having done a few shoot outs alone years ago trying to keep the 22 on the field at the end on the field - it is much easier now the teams can just send takers as they wish.
Here grassroots football has adapted to be inclusive. Our rolling subs are with ball in play. There is no official kit inspection. No CARs.
Has my FA asked IFAB in writing? Is that line in the laws about asking in writing binding? I don’t know. You’d have to ask them.
(In other news we have one national competition on cable TV where drawn matches got to extra time and penalties. The shoot outs were going down long that this season the teams nominate 5 takers only - and the same player/s can take repeated alternating kicks after the first five. Futsal but how about that for going off the map!)
I love the instinct on this forum to immediately point out problems with an idea while somehow managing to avoid putting a second of critical thinking into possible answers! Is it strange that I read the post you replied to and my brain immediately started solving the problems you highlight?
I appreciate Santa has given a slightly different answer, but the laws do need an update WRT rolling subs, no one likes the referee having to stop and take notes every time a change is made. I'd change the substitution process for a start, but I'd also simply say when it comes to PKs, you just note the shirt numbers of the first 11 players to take a kick for each side (or first 10 if there's been a RC etc) and then BAM: those are your penalty takers if it needs to go round again. If some of those 11 happen to be subs that have rolled off previously, no problem.
But why does repeat subs need a special provision?
The game has ended. No more subs can be made (excluding to replace an injured GK). Why does that have to change for rolling subs. What problem are we solving. I don't recall ever having a problem that needed solving with a law change when cup games with rolling subs go to pens.
The problem that this thread literally was started because of?
Under current laws, it is possible to allow the "wrong" player to take a penalty, which potentially triggers an investigation, replays and suspensions for the referee. And repeat subs a) make it easier for the referee to mess up, because even someone attempting to take a record will need to track considerably more changes and potentially include players coming back on who went off previously and b) makes it much less obvious to managers that there is a distinction between players rolled back on before the end of the game and those who aren't back on, so a manager could easily "cheat" without realising that's what they're doing.
Changing the laws in the way either I or @santa sangria suggest basically removes the concept of the "wrong" player taking a penalty. Which removes the possibility of a referee getting it wrong. Honestly, I struggle to see the down side.
The OP could just have easily happened in a game with limited subs.
You appear to be assuming the issue was repeat subs, but we don't have any confirmation of that.
It may very well be that this referee did not know that only those on field of play can take pens, in which case you can change the law for repeat subs all you like, he may still get it wrong.
You appear to be assuming the issue was repeat subs, but we don't have any confirmation of that.
It may very well be that this referee did not know that only those on field of play can take pens, in which case you can change the law for repeat subs all you like, he may still get it wrong.
I don't agree at all. If any 11 players can take a kick, it is considerably less likely that the "wrong" player will take a kick. That seems self-evident to me?
I think repeat subs make this issue far more likely, yes. Again, I'm struggling to articulate why, because....obviously more players rolling on and off will make it harder to track which players were on the pitch at a key moment (full time). How would it not?
I think repeat subs make this issue far more likely, yes. Again, I'm struggling to articulate why, because....obviously more players rolling on and off will make it harder to track which players were on the pitch at a key moment (full time). How would it not?
It might make life easier. But we've got one example of it going wrong, but we haven't verified what actually went wrong, so we will introduce a law change to fix a problem, that might not be the problem, but in doing so make the laws different in different settings, which could also lead to the same mistake?
But repeat subs is totally irrelevant to the whole situation.
11 players finish the match, 11 players can take penalties. That doesn’t change with repeat subs.
A team must sub any players they want to be on the pitch to take a penalty at a stoppage before the end of extra time, regardless of repeat subs or not.
I don’t understand what is different for repeat subs that would require a law revision
I am proposing that we stop caring about who was on the pitch at the end of the game. Pick any 11 of your (up to) 16 listed players to take a PK. Write their number down when they walk up. Job done.
