The Ref Stop

Misapplication of Law

RichardRef

New Member
Cup game with rolling/returning subs. Match goes to penalties. Home team ask referee, “can anyone take a pen?”. Ref replies “yes, anyone in the squad” (I’m pretty certain this is incorrect. Should only be finishing 11 who can hit penalty)

Anyway, home team win. Later that night when reviewing mobile phone footage of the penalties the away team realise that a player who was sub to finish the match hit a pen. This is confirmed by the referee.

Team Lodge an appeal.

What would the likely outcome of this appeal be in your opinion?
 
The Ref Stop
Did both teams use ineligible players in the penalties? That would affect the committee's decision. It will be up to the competition to decide the outcome (possibly award to visitors, or a replay, etc) and the referee will be asked to explain.
 
Likely outcome will be an uncomfortable phone call for the referee (and presumably further action) and the match or the shootout being replayed, but it's down to the league to decide (And I base this only on what you've said, without knowing any other facts which may alter that)
 
Cup game with rolling/returning subs. Match goes to penalties. Home team ask referee, “can anyone take a pen?”. Ref replies “yes, anyone in the squad” (I’m pretty certain this is incorrect. Should only be finishing 11 who can hit penalty)

Anyway, home team win. Later that night when reviewing mobile phone footage of the penalties the away team realise that a player who was sub to finish the match hit a pen. This is confirmed by the referee.

Team Lodge an appeal.

What would the likely outcome of this appeal be in your opinion?
Unless there was a league specific rule, Law 10.3 is clear in that subs are not permitted to take part in a penalty shoot out.

I'm not on a committee but do work in sports regulation, so I imagine the key factors a committee would consider in determining the outcome of the appeal are:

Did subs for both teams take penalties?
Did the subs actually convert their penalties?

Committees can be a law unto themselves and the standard Rules aren't prescriptive so leave them with plenty of discretion. I recall my son's team winning a league cup semi-final and it turned out due to an administrative error pre-season that half his squad wasn't registered even though they'd be playing all season (ie they weren't ringers). Opposition appealed but the appeal was dismissed.

I would imagine the likely outcomes being:
  • If the said sub took a penalty but missed, it had no bearing on the outcome and I imagine the result would stand.
  • If both teams had subs take penalties and both missed it had no bearing on the outcome and I imagine the result would stand.
  • If both teams had subs take take penalties and the winning team's sub scored but the losing team's missed, they were both given the same opportunity and I'd imagine the result would stand.
  • If only the winning team had a sub take a penalty, and that penalty was scored, I'd imagine a replay would be ordered, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it wasn't as a result of both teams having the opportunity to use subs given the referee's direction.
 
This could result in disciplinary action for the referee including a suspension.

It will be for a league committee to decide the outcome and that could range from the result standing, the whole game being replayed, or the penalty shootout being replayed.

The penalty shootout being replayed is problematic since the 11 players on field of play is unlikely to be recorded anywhere so anyone of the squad could be selected (presumably only from those names on the day).

A law that hasn't kept up with rolling subs.
Not sure I follow. Repeat subs or not, the principle of only those on field of play at end of game remains the same.
Whether it's repeat or limited subs they need to be made before the end of the game.
 
Not sure I follow. Repeat subs or not, the principle of only those on field of play at end of game remains the same.
Whether it's repeat or limited subs they need to be made before the end of the game.

They just make the changes at the last stoppage before the game ends, without rolling subs you have to save a substitution for this.
Just let them do it after the final whistle.
 
They just make the changes at the last stoppage before the game ends, without rolling subs you have to save a substitution for this.
Just let them do it after the final whistle.
It doesn't matter whether it's 'rolling subs' or not, you need a break in play before the final whistle to make a substitution. You can never make a sub after the final whistle in any situation (unless a goalkeeper is injured and should be participating in the shootout of course)
 
They just make the changes at the last stoppage before the game ends, without rolling subs you have to save a substitution for this.
Just let them do it after the final whistle.
That's my point though. What is the difference? Surely then the argument would be if I have a sub remaining why can't I do this after the final whistle.
The concept doesn't change because repeats are in operation. And if it changes for one then it should for the other...
 
It doesn't matter whether it's 'rolling subs' or not, you need a break in play before the final whistle to make a substitution. You can never make a sub after the final whistle in any situation (unless a player is injured and should be participating in the shootout of course)
Goal keeper. If a player is injured and can't take part the opposition reduce by one. 😇
 
The outcomes will almost certainly be the game being replayed and the referee getting a 21 day "rest".

It is trickier with repeated subs as the number of changes make it difficult to keep track of who is on the pitch at the end. You do need to know though so I'd recommend keeping a full record of who came on and who went off if it is a cup game. If you have ARs ask AR1 to try and keep the 22 that finished on the pitch at the end and everyone else off, I'd also speak to both managers at half time in extra time, or half time if no ET, to make sure they know that only the 11 that finished, you can also ask them to help you by keeping subs off the pitch at the end.

A worrying percentage of referees don't understand the laws for penalty shoot out. On a Facebook refereeing forum someone asked who a team could remove if the other team are down to 10. A staggering percentage thought that they could remove their keeper from taking kicks but still have him in goal to face them, which is obviously very wrong.
 
Unless there was a league specific rule, Law 10.3 is clear in that subs are not permitted to take part in a penalty shoot out.
League rules can't trump the LotG.

While you're not wrong that League Management Committees can be a law unto themselves, their decisions can be appealed to the competition's sanctioning authority (either a County FA or The FA).
 
I guess a replay is the best option. Just replaying the penalty shoot out would likely be a different 11 players for both sides anyway.

Besides, if both teams are going to travel, let's have a game of football!
 
Unless there was a league specific rule, Law 10.3 is clear in that subs are not permitted to take part in a penalty shoot out.

I'm not on a committee but do work in sports regulation, so I imagine the key factors a committee would consider in determining the outcome of the appeal are:

Did subs for both teams take penalties?
Did the subs actually convert their penalties?

Committees can be a law unto themselves and the standard Rules aren't prescriptive so leave them with plenty of discretion. I recall my son's team winning a league cup semi-final and it turned out due to an administrative error pre-season that half his squad wasn't registered even though they'd be playing all season (ie they weren't ringers). Opposition appealed but the appeal was dismissed.

I would imagine the likely outcomes being:
  • If the said sub took a penalty but missed, it had no bearing on the outcome and I imagine the result would stand.
  • If both teams had subs take penalties and both missed it had no bearing on the outcome and I imagine the result would stand.
  • If both teams had subs take take penalties and the winning team's sub scored but the losing team's missed, they were both given the same opportunity and I'd imagine the result would stand.
  • If only the winning team had a sub take a penalty, and that penalty was scored, I'd imagine a replay would be ordered, but I wouldn't be entirely surprised if it wasn't as a result of both teams having the opportunity to use subs given the referee's direction.
Think about this logically, if the ineligible player taking a penalty didn't affect the outcome of the game the competition would almost certainly never find out about it. This usually only ever comes to light when the losing team lodge a protest with the competition, if it hasn't affected the outcome neither team will say a peep as the winners might face getting the game replayed and the losers could face a fine on top of being losers.

This happens far more often than you would think. What happens ultimately depends on what evidence there is. If the losers claim someone who didn't finish the game scored a penalty and the winners deny it then it comes down to who to believe. The league can ask the referee, but they will often say that to the best of their knowledge only the finishers took penalties, it then becomes very difficult to do anything about it. Even where there is a recording of the game it usually won't show which players were on the pitch at full time. If they hold their hands up and say they made a mistake, or the winning team admit it, then the league will have little option but to order the game to be replayed. If they didn't the losing team would inevitably appeal to the sanctioning authority and they would order the replay.

When a referee causes a game to have to be replayed it is very rare that the competition wouldn't refer that to the referee's parent CFA, and once that process is set in motion there's next to no chance of the referee avoiding a charge and suspension.
 
If you are going to play under the LOTG then you play under the LOTG. Up here apparently a club official was carrying a copy of an email sent from a league official stating subs used could take penalties. Some clarification is really needed.
 
Some clarification is really needed.
I do get your point, people could read this and think that a substitute is temporarily off the field of play, on the basis they'd been temporarily on and off throughout the game. It probably could be worded more clearly.

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If you are going to play under the LOTG then you play under the LOTG. Up here apparently a club official was carrying a copy of an email sent from a league official stating subs used could take penalties. Some clarification is really needed.
@JamesL official clarification:

They cannot! 😇
 
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