Martinelli incident - Southampton vs Arsenal FA Cup QF

[wazztie16]

How many people if pushed by a player on a Saturday / Sunday would go yellow card and how many would go red?

Depends if I have the same environment as they do in the Premier League, security, medical staff in attendance in case the the player in question decides to attack me after I've administered the sanction etc...

(FWIW, I'm leaning towards a caution for Martinelli, as, i know many hate it, I think 'it's what football expects').

 

[santa sangria]

Context. Every match and match situation is different. While stupid and disrespectful, this incident is trivial and surely the referee has been smart with the yellow here.

At grassroots in a game getting out of hand, same action, maybe the smart move is a different colour card.

 

[one]

If a player tries to push an opponent out of the way how much force is necessary? I’d say none

That is incorrect in law. Players are allowed to push opponents if done done fairly. Football is a contact sport. A push on an opponent only becomes an offence if it is CREEF. So different levels of it are defined in law.

But in football contact is not allowed or justified against match officials. That is where "none" comes from in my post.

Again, comparing acts against others players to acts against match officials is not the best way to debate this point.

 

[socal lurker]

That is incorrect in law. Players are allowed to push opponents if done done fairly. Football is a contact sport. A push on an opponent only becomes an offence if it is CREEF. So different levels of it are defined in law.

But in football contact is not allowed or justified against match officials. That is where "none" comes from in my post.

Again, comparing acts against others players to acts against match officials is not the best way to debate this point.

In fairness was, I think Lothian was referring to pushing. An opponent in a dead ball context. I would still differentiate—an opponent in the way is doing something he shouldn’t, which is not the same with a ref.

As I noted above, while I think the game expects this to be a caution, I don’t think it should. The game should expect this to be a send off, and IFAB should be working on that.

I’d note than many years the NBA (which has similar prima donas to soccer) made clear that bumping the ref was an auto ejection. It was so clear that Magic Johnson who initially was outraged at being tossed saw the footage where he mildly bumped into a ref, and apologized, saying it was clear the ref was right because under no circumstances can you bump a ref. IMO that should be the expectation in soccer, too.

 

[Johnson]

In lotg excessive force is using more force/energy than is necessary. What force is necessary to push the referee out of the way? None

Necessary force can’t be the actual minimum amount of force else all contact that isn’t a challenge for the ball is a red card.

 

[JamesL]

Quick Google search turns up the above published by IFAB at the start of this season.

I'm in the this is not enough for a red card camp but I 100% support and accept those that would issue a red card.

As with all things context is exceptionally important and that context changes on a lot of variables. I think for me the force used in the pish here is minimal, it's more movement you are in the way than I'm pushing you aggressively because I'm unhappy.

I dont condone contact with a match official in any way, but it's not an auto red imo, any contact has to be taken in context and dealt with appropriately.

 

[DavidObs]

View attachment 8622

Quick Google search turns up the above published by IFAB at the start of this season.

I'm in the this is not enough for a red card camp but I 100% support and accept those that would issue a red card.

As with all things context is exceptionally important and that context changes on a lot of variables. I think for me the force used in the pish here is minimal, it's more movement you are in the way than I'm pushing you aggressively because I'm unhappy.

I dont condone contact with a match official in any way, but it's not an auto red imo, any contact has to be taken in context and dealt with appropriately.

I would say your comments are spot on James.

 

[Gabriel]

I would guess because there is nothing in the laws that upgrades VC based on it being on a match official rather than a player? There is no way on earth this could be defined as VC if player on player contact, it would be a stretch for it even to be a caution. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a red card, but it is a real stretch to say the law supports it as such.

Exactly this. That was my thought process in the relevant response. Do I think it should be a red? 100% Could I support that using the LOTG? It's difficult

 

[DavidObs]

Exactly this. That was my thought process in the relevant response. Do I think it should be a red? 100% Could I support that using the LOTG? It's difficult

If we compare to the Fulham incident whereby the player was aggressive prior to, at the time of the push & subsequently compared to the Arsenal incident should both be treated the same - not in my eyes.

 

[Gabriel]

If we compare to the Fulham incident whereby the player was aggressive prior to, at the time of the push & subsequently compared to the Arsenal incident should both be treated the same - not in my eyes.

Agreed. They are very different incidents.

 

[Paul_10]

Agreed. They are very different incidents.

They are different but the level of contact looks similar too me and when I say they are different I mean more in the fact Mitrovic was already speaking to the ref and it was not until he did the shove/nudge and the red card came out he became overly aggressive towards the referee.

Maybe the law needs to be more black and white in that any push/shove on a referee is an automatic red card offense regardless level of force or understanding why he did it. I don't think you should give him a excuse just because he wanted to take a quick free kick, the ref was clearly going too see an injured player so a quick free kick was never on.

I do also feel if this was an Southampton player, I'm not sure we would see fan pages calling for a red card, there is definately a big club bias amongst supporters in terms of controversial incidents like this and how they are reported on social media.

 

[RustyRef]

They are different but the level of contact looks similar too me and when I say they are different I mean more in the fact Mitrovic was already speaking to the ref and it was not until he did the shove/nudge and the red card came out he became overly aggressive towards the referee.

Maybe the law needs to be more black and white in that any push/shove on a referee is an automatic red card offense regardless level of force or understanding why he did it. I don't think you should give him a excuse just because he wanted to take a quick free kick, the ref was clearly going too see an injured player so a quick free kick was never on.

I do also feel if this was an Southampton player, I'm not sure we would see fan pages calling for a red card, there is definately a big club bias amongst supporters in terms of controversial incidents like this and how they are reported on social media.

I don’t think it is that straightforward. Often when there is a push on a referee he won’t have a clue who did it. A few years ago I got pushed over, I was pretty annoyed at the time and suspected foul play but I had no idea what had happened. Seeing it back on video after I was in the way and whilst I think the player could probably have avoided me the outcome might have been worse had he run full into me instead of pushing me.

I do tend to agree that if it was a Southampton player there would be less pile on, perhaps not on this site but in the general media. Arsenal are finding the hard way that those at the top get shot at and it does feel at the moment that everyone wants them to fail.

 

[CaptainsPlease]

In the Mitrovic case the commission stated "'excessive force' in the context of a match official falls to be considered from the admitted starting point, namely that it is unacceptable to use any force or put hands on a Match Official." Furthermore the commission agreed with the FA's application for a greater-than-standard suspension for the actions leading to his VC red card. Given that, it seems clear a VC dismissal would have been justifiable for Martinelli (with the standard suspension likely applicable), or perhaps an OFFINABUS dismissal as an alternative.


I think the FA could still charge Martinelli with Misconduct if it wanted to over this incident, but think they may be reluctant as it risks the decision going against them and Arsenal/Martinelli would likely argue that the referee was fully aware what had happened and decided a caution was sufficient punishment, assuming Barrott has not submitted an extraordinary report.


I would like all referees to consistently sanction a player who deliberately lays hands or uses force on them with a VC red card, to uphold expectations of physical safety for match officials, and for PGMO + the FA to specify this in their guidance to all match officials and participants.

 

[RefereeX]

Comparing this incident in any way, shape or form to the Mitrovic incident is just utterly ludicrous. They’re not even remotely similar.

 

[RustyRef]

Comparing this incident in any way, shape or form to the Mitrovic incident is just utterly ludicrous. They’re not even remotely similar.

Agree, one was a very angry player manhandling the referee the other was a player stupidly pushing the referee to try to take a quick free kick. Martinelli shouldn't have done it, but it was nothing like what Mitrovic did.

To touch on another point that has been raised, the FA can't charge Martinelli. To do so they would have to argue that the referee missed the incident, which in reality would be impossible given he was the one pushed and showed a caution immediately after it happened. He could hardly claim that he didn't see it.