The Ref Stop

Mark Clattenburg - Arsenal vs Hull

Mooseybaby

Mooseybaby

Retired big bad baldy in all black!
Certainly was a busy and somewhat controversial afternoon for Mark Clattenburg.

Opening goal of the game coming after some 6 yard box pinball, which bounced up onto Alexis Sanchez hand and into the Hull net. Deliberate or not, ball wouldn't have gone in had it not struck Sanchez hand.

At 1-0 Kieron Gibbs wiped out Markovic with a "last man" shoulder barge with no intent to win the ball about 30 yards from goal as the Hull man was running onto a flick on. Clattenburg showed Gibbs a yellow card. :confused:

To rub salt in Hull's wounds, Sam Clucas shown a straight red for handball on the goal line in the last minute.
 
The Ref Stop
Yes, he is not going to look back fondly on that. Two KMIs clearly wrong, and I actually think for the DOGSO that was given there was a more than reasonable chance the keeper would have saved it had Clucas not handled it.

Don't think Mark would be best advised to go and experience the UK's City of Culture any time soon, he might not be very popular there for a while ..!
 
I actually think he gets the gibbs one correct on the basis that the attacker does not yet have the ball under control. It's cynical and I absolutely see how some might say dogso. However, for me, not so cut and dry.

Sanchez handball - seem to recall some posts on here when koscielny scored with his hands saying correct - not deliberate. This is another close one, at first I thought not deliberate but on second viewing, for me I think there is enough hand to ball movement for handball. A caution would seem harsh but, I think, would probably have to be mandatory.

Clucas red - seemed harsh on two counts 1. Looks accidental but that could be clever play from the defender but as @RustyRef says 2. The keeper looks to be making a save, there wasnt much power in the header either making a save more likely. All that said in real time can see how Mark arrives at the decision.
 
I thought the attacker clearly did take the ball under control very well on the chest in the Gibbs dogso incident - but I don't think the ref or AR could see that.
And yes, maybe the GK might have saved the handball but the Clucas one is an easy red. And terrible from the keeper leading up to it. Gutted for Clucas.
The Sanchez goal, ping pong, not deliberate, ball to hand at speed, goal.
I think all three decision were "right" - but just like last time I watched him I really think the hand signals have gone too far. Clatts blows for a foul, the players complain, as always, and he puts his hands together to signify there's been contact... he's just stopped play by blowing his whistle, it is already pretty self evident he thinks there's been contact!
 
Clattenburg has reportedly apologised to Hull and said the first goal was handball and should have been disallowed. Judging by the replays, his assistant had an unobstructed view. They did have a conversation before allowing the goal to stand.

Not doubt the usual debates about natural/unnatural position and the amount of intent Sanchez had will follow. However for me it's still a simple fact that had Sanchez's hand was facing up/away from his body and the ball would not have gone in the net without hitting his hand. If I saw that at grassroots level, would be giving handball all day long.

Gibbs said in the post match he got lucky and that Clattenburg told the players the direction of the ball was heading away from goal so wasn't a red. For me (granted with the additional benefit of replays) the ball only headed away from goal after the attacker was flattened by Gibbs. Prior to the barge, the attacker and the ball were clearly headed straight down the middle of the pitch and very much towards goal.

 
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Doesn't looks deliberate to me at that distance. Has no time to react, if it was a defender in his own box I think it may be possible people say it would be harsh to give it. That must be the view the assistant referee has of it due to his unobstructed position.
I haven't properly seen the DOGSO incident with Gibbs so I won't comment on it.
As for the handball on the line it's certainly a handball and it has to be a red that follows.

Didn't think he had that bad of a game.
 
Mooseybaby said:
Deliberate or not, ball wouldn't have gone in had it not struck Sanchez hand.
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This statement is utterly irrelevant. ALL that matters is deliberate or not...whether the ball/hand contact leads to an advantage makes absolutely zero difference in Law. It's bad enough when we have to point this out to players and coaches. When a qualified referee also parrots this myth, it makes all our jobs harder.
 
On Twitter not too long ago, a referee shared a screenshot of a text from a PGMOL referee who stated that if a goal is scored through the use of a hand, either to assist the goal, or to actually score the goal (as Sanchez did) - the goal should be disallowed. I think based on this, this goal should've been disallowed for handball.
I tried to find the screenshot but unfortunately the account has been suspended - I'm not making it up though :p
 
CA said:
On Twitter not too long ago, a referee shared a screenshot of a text from a PGMOL referee who stated that if a goal is scored through the use of a hand, either to assist the goal, or to actually score the goal (as Sanchez did) - the goal should be disallowed. I think based on this, this goal should've been disallowed for handball.
I tried to find the screenshot but unfortunately the account has been suspended - I'm not making it up though :p
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This is a bit frustrating. Football laws should be universal the PGMOL shouldn't be able to pick and choose what they want. Laws are there for a reason.
 
Flip this round the other way though, if it was a defender who blocked the ball going in with his arm above his head everyone would be saying penalty and red card. So it has to work both ways, had Sanchez's hand not been in that position the rebound would have gone away from goal rather than into it.
 
Did he deliberately move his hand into the path of the ball? If not, then no offence was committed......

Haven't seen any of the incidents......but as Clatts is probably our best elite level ref at the moment, i wouldn't be surprised if he got them spot on.
 
CA said:
On Twitter not too long ago, a referee shared a screenshot of a text from a PGMOL referee who stated that if a goal is scored through the use of a hand, either to assist the goal, or to actually score the goal (as Sanchez did) - the goal should be disallowed. I think based on this, this goal should've been disallowed for handball.
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I think the Twitter screenshot may have been slightly misunderstood (a guess, since it no longer exists). Certainly if a goal is scored through DELIBERATE handling it should be disallowed and if the referee believes it was intentionally carried out "in an attempt to score a goal" the player cautioned. If a goal is prevented by DELIBERATE handling a red card is shown. But if the handling (ITOOTR) is not DELIBERATE then in all cases there is no offence and none of this applies.
 
No way is it deliberate. Should be a goal by the laws. Now, if someone from higher up wants to tell us all that a hand cannot score a goal under any circumstances then that's a different story. But it sounds like here-say and that Mr Clattenburg should not be "apologising" for this one - makes it very very confusing.
 
Ganajin said:
This statement is utterly irrelevant. ALL that matters is deliberate or not...whether the ball/hand contact leads to an advantage makes absolutely zero difference in Law. It's bad enough when we have to point this out to players and coaches. When a qualified referee also parrots this myth, it makes all our jobs harder.
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Not actually irrelevant to be honest. If it hadn't struck his hand, then it wouldn't have gone in the goal. If it hadn't gone in the goal, then you wouldn't have been able to embarrass yourself for criticising a factual statement.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
Not actually irrelevant to be honest. If it hadn't struck his hand, then it wouldn't have gone in the goal. If it hadn't gone in the goal, then you wouldn't have been able to embarrass yourself for criticising a factual statement.
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No embarrassment at all. I never implied that the factual statement was untrue...rather that it was irrelevant, in other words it had no bearing on the matter being discussed. The OP was centred on whether a goal should be allowed or not for a case of handling the ball: and the only consideration in that discussion is whether the act was deliberate or not...

I would also like to add that Hydrogen is the lightest element. Please do not criticise my completely factual statement...even if it is totally irrelevant to the matter under discussion.

Looking over many of the posts on these forums however, and the way threads meander often into the surreal, I think it may entirely possible that many of you have lost the ability to judge irrelevancy :)
 
Mooseybaby said:
Certainly was a busy and somewhat controversial afternoon for Mark Clattenburg.

Opening goal of the game coming after some 6 yard box pinball, which bounced up onto Alexis Sanchez hand and into the Hull net. Deliberate or not, ball wouldn't have gone in had it not struck Sanchez hand.

At 1-0 Kieron Gibbs wiped out Markovic with a "last man" shoulder barge with no intent to win the ball about 30 yards from goal as the Hull man was running onto a flick on. Clattenburg showed Gibbs a yellow card. :confused:

To rub salt in Hull's wounds, Sam Clucas shown a straight red for handball on the goal line in the last minute.
Click to expand...

What does the fact the ball went in have to do with it? Are you saying Sanchez should have been cautioned? So clearly accidental therefore it's a goal.

The markovic ball was not even close to being in his control. Correct decision again
 
Ok....just seen the incidents.....

Never in a million years is the first goal a victim of an unpunished handball offence.......Sanchez's arm is already in that position before the ball rebounds off the Hull GK so clearly ball to hand. Anyone that thinks that is a handball offence, apart from being a moron, is clearly pandering to the MOTD generation and their ridiculous interpretations of the LOTG.
Quote from the idiot Danny Murphy on MOTD just now..."doesn't matter if he meant it or not....".....if it's not deliberate, it's not handball, when are these moronic "experts" going to learn that one?

Gibbs.....can't see any reason why that wasn't a red card......

Clucas......clearly moves his arm backwards to make contact with the ball.....hand to ball. Right decision.....

In the words of the immortal Meatloaf.....2 out of 3 ain't bad!
 
Padfoot said:
Ok....just seen the incidents.....

Never in a million years is the first goal a victim of an unpunished handball offence.......Sanchez's arm is already in that position before the ball rebounds off the Hull GK so clearly ball to hand. Anyone that thinks that is a handball offence, apart from being a moron, is clearly pandering to the MOTD generation and their ridiculous interpretations of the LOTG.
Quote from the idiot Danny Murphy on MOTD just now..."doesn't matter if he meant it or not....".....if it's not deliberate, it's not handball, when are these moronic "experts" going to learn that one?

Gibbs.....can't see any reason why that wasn't a red card......

Clucas......clearly moves his arm backwards to make contact with the ball.....hand to ball. Right decision.....

In the words of the immortal Meatloaf.....2 out of 3 ain't bad!
Click to expand...

Danny Murphy's ramblings were astonishing
 
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