Man U Vs Liverpool

[JamesL]

I thought the same about Webb, and I know I've had that discussion with someone on here before!

I'm not saying Taylor is a "bad" referee at all, I obviously understand how he came to work in the PL. But it's the suggestion that he's our best that I've always taken issue with - I think he's too shy with a red card and I think it's Oliver's ability to make that kind of big call that stands him out and should see AT regarded as a "decent PL referee" a tier below MO and no more.

(If anything, support from the FA and UEFA only supports my point - the idea that the governing bodies might prefer a referee who tends to avoid sending off the stars is not a suggestion I've just come up with now, it's a long-standing concept!)

And I'm not denying that the VAR resulting in a slightly greater tendency to go yellow isn't an issue that exists. I'm just saying that I think AT's tendency to avoid red whenever there's even the slightest sliver of doubt has existed since before VAR. Some referees take "management" too far and while I admit that linking it to the bald ones is a little tongue-in-cheek, we can ignore that pattern and my opinions on AT will remain the same.

Interestingly the stats don't back that up.

MO PL apps 300 red cards 39
AT PL Apps 293 red cards 40.

Conversely AT has given more yellow cards, 984 - 950.

So AT is actually marginally more likely to send a player off in a PL game and has a higher cautions per game ratio.

Obviously, this doesn't account for the many many variables such as VAR overturns, perceived missed red cards, what actually happens in the games ie.

Can draw lots of conclusions from Stats but one thing that this definitely shows is that AT is not as shy as you perceive him to be.

I actually rate At very highly and honestly reckon without England making it he was in line for the final.

 

[RefIADad]

On a serious note, I think the tendency to go yellow is a common theme across the current PL referees. VAR is bailing them out on most occasions, but it's worrying that there seems to be an inclination to always go yellow (even when red is the seemingly obvious decision).

It's not just in the Premier League.

I watch a lot of soccer around the world, and VAR really has seemed to fundamentally change on-field refereeing. On-field referees are much more hesitant to give a red card now, because they know that if it's truly a send-off VAR can "bail them out" by saying it was a clear and obvious error to not give a red.

I don't like this trend. The Pogba "challenge" was one that any good referee should be able to sanction as SFP in live action. I get why this trend is occurring. Michael Oliver received a fair bit of criticism for his correct SFP red card in the Spain-Switzerland Euro quarterfinal. Far easier to just give the caution and let VAR determine if it's obvious enough to say, "yep, that's a red". (Full disclosure that I realize this isn't SUPPOSED to be how VAR works, but I can't help but think reality is different.)

 

[one]

I'd like to see the stats on the number of games per direct red card (not VAR assisted, no double yellows) pre VAR and post VAR. I am willing to bet a pretty penny on it being higher pre VAR for all PL referees.

 

[GraemeS]

And yet there's a strong argument that after yesterday, AT's number should have been 42. And without the help of VAR on a really basic call, they would have been level with a statistically insignificant difference in the number of games.

We're arguing about my perception here and I don't claim to watch every minute of AT's PL games, so we're unlikely to reach an agreement. And although I've been harsh, I do think AT is broadly fine. And in a world without MO, maybe I could see a case for him being the best of the rest. But that's as far as I'll go!

 

[Big Cat]

VAR has had a detrimental impact on the overall standard of Refereeing. Poor Refereeing justifies VAR
Perhaps they're being instructed to go with 'yellow' and leave it to VAR to identify irrefutable evidence of SFP/VC etc. Another way of keeping the big potatoes on the FOP at almost any cost. I'm sure a lot of the poor Reffing in the EPL stems from the instructions to which the Refs operate

 

[Paul_10]

I recall mentioning in a thread last season there seem to be a high number of yellow card overturns into a red and how it can't be a good thing.

I think it's obvious that English refs tend to produce less red cards than their foreign counterparts(apart from German referees) and whilst foreign refs bar for a red card can seem too low, I'm afraid PL referees bar of being higher is being more exposed by VAR. I do think somewhere in between is more ideal with punishing dangerous play and the other side of managing the game.

I rate Anthony Taylor highly and he is definately not afraid of showing red cards when it needs too but it does not look too good on the stats his 2 red cards has been via the VAR

 

[deusex]

Ref got one look.
Anyone who says they knew 100% it was a RC first viewing is fibbing.
Human nature is to go YC when you know VAR will bail you out if it's a red.

 

[OIREF!]

VAR has had a detrimental impact on the overall standard of Refereeing. Poor Refereeing justifies VAR
Perhaps they're being instructed to go with 'yellow' and leave it to VAR to identify irrefutable evidence of SFP/VC etc. Another way of keeping the big potatoes on the FOP at almost any cost. I'm sure a lot of the poor Reffing in the EPL stems from the instructions to which the Refs operate

That wouldn't surprise me at all. I do suspect there are elements of the VAR decision making procedures which are not known to us mere mortals.

 

[GraemeS]

Ref got one look.
Anyone who says they knew 100% it was a RC first viewing is fibbing.
Human nature is to go YC when you know VAR will bail you out if it's a red.

For you and me? Sure.

For someone who I'm constantly told is the best referee in England? This should be about as easy as a SFP red card gets and is a bad miss.

 

[Big Cat]

Pogba's SFP was very obvious side-on. However, AT had a bullseye view. Whilst he probably would've left it to VAR anyway regardless of angle, it's fair to say he couldn't give the red card on this occasion due to his position

 

[RustyRef]

Big Cat has it spot on, from a side on view it looked obvious, but it was much less obvious from the view that Taylor had. As with so many things in refereeing, angle of view can completely change how you see something.

I might be in a minority here, but I'm fine with them erring on the side of caution and going yellow rather than straight red and then letting VAR sort it out. If they go red it is only going to get downgraded if it is a clear and obvious error, and there have been cases where arguably red was wrong but VAR won't get involved as not obvious enough. Whereas for this one yellow was clearly and obviously wrong, and VAR correctly recommended a review. That said, I don't think they are intentionally avoiding red cards as Taylor will get an incorrect KMI in his report even though VAR bailed him out.

 

[socal lurker]

That said, I don't think they are intentionally avoiding red cards as Taylor will get an incorrect KMI in his report even though VAR bailed him out.

I think this is a key point. I think there are going to be some that don't get given with VAR lurking in the back of the mind, but it's really hard for me to tell the extent to which the decline in reds is really related to VAR as opposed to the pendulum swinging back a bit on the standard for VC and SFP.

 

[santa sangria]

The Fernandez one looks bad as a still, but I felt it glanced off the shin pad at an angle and wasn't so excessive. I thought yellow was justifiable a the time.

I think Bruno and Cristiano are lucky the Liverpool players did not make a meal of either challenge - as I think they could've both swayed the referee.