The Ref Stop

Maguire hb yay or nay

Did Harry commit a handball offence prior to the goal?

  • Total voters
    29
The Ref Stop
Deliberate handball - no
Made body unnaturally bigger - no
Scored immediately in the opponents goal - no

No handball offence committed.
 
santa sangria said:
Looks like deliberate handball to me. What else explains the movement and position of his arms?
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It's a reflex action. He's about to potentially get thumped in the chest area by the ball or opponent boot. No way your arms do anything other than that in that situation.
 
I'm comfortable with it not being intentional handling given the short distance. So we then have accidental handling, and as Maguire very clearly didn't score it can only be a goal.
 
So.... a reflex action (according to IFAB, or at least a media person in IFAB) makes a player's hand position/movement natural.

A defender who is usually a goal keeper save a goal by stretching his hand to block it on the line with a reflex action...
 
JamesL said:
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Ifab, at least in 2022, would disagree with your take on that.
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It was not a powerful shot or anything like that though so Im not sure if this situation really covers that but I don't think it's deliberate handball either so I dont see an issue here.

Let's face it, it Ipswich scored that goal there be much less noise that it's an injustice but because it's Man United then it's unfair despite the laws being clear its a legitimate goal.
 
Paul_10 said:
It was not a powerful shot or anything like that though so Im not sure if this situation really covers that but I don't think it's deliberate handball either so I dont see an issue here.

Let's face it, it Ipswich scored that goal there be much less noise that it's an injustice but because it's Man United then it's unfair despite the laws being clear its a legitimate goal.
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It wasn't but there was also the imminent threat of the opponents boot..I think anyone going into that challenge instinctively (i.e. reflex) defends them self in that way.
 
one said:
So.... a reflex action (according to IFAB, or at least a media person in IFAB) makes a player's hand position/movement natural.

A defender who is usually a goal keeper save a goal by stretching his hand to block it on the line with a reflex action...
Click to expand...
Well, the glossary if the magic book says

Deliberate​
An action which the player intended/meant to make; it is not a ‘reflex’ or unintended reaction​

That definition predates splitting out unnatural from deliberate. I think it pretty clearly is intended to apply to HB offenses (other than the attacker who scores). And I think it unambiguously applies in the professional game. I think what changes is what is acceptable as a reasonable reflex. At U8, it is incredibly broad. In the professional game it is incredibly narrow. And it is a sliding scale between them. Whether this incident applies is a matter of referee judgment. (I haven’t seen the live play and don’t want to opine from a still shot.)
 
This goal only gets given in England.

What was said about player reaction only last week?

I'm sure different leagues have different definitions of what an own goal is, there could be edge cases where the definition becomes relevant.
 
I think this is similar morally to the handball not given between Man Utd and Nottm Forest after a rejected monitor review by Graham Salisbury. It's not handball by a literal interpretation of the law, but most of the game expects handball here.

Edit to add: I've voted no, for clarity.
 
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I'm not an advocate of giving too many handballs because the vast majority involve accidental and natural position when considerations are accounted for. However to me, this one looks more like a deliberate action than a reflex. Although unsure, I'd lean towards hand deliberately moved towards the ball
 
In real time, if they see it, nearly every referee gives this as handball.

You can debate the theoretical answer but in practice you're giving handball.
 
I'd expect a player on £200k (!!!) per week to take the pain of it hitting his chest and not putting his arms in front of him 🤔
 
BCMilan said:
I'd expect a player on £200k (!!!) per week to take the pain of it hitting his chest and not putting his arms in front of him 🤔
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I think he could reasonably expect it to hit him in the face not the chest … and I’m not sure any player at any level should be expected to just run the risk of that occurring …..
 
Russell Jones said:
I think he could reasonably expect it to hit him in the face not the chest … and I’m not sure any player at any level should be expected to just run the risk of that occurring …..
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I certainly think so. Did you used to see how John Terry would throw his body across to prevent a goal. He didn't care where it struck him (providing it wasn't his arms)
 
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The 'natural' reaction or instinct I expect from a high level player who is defending a ball about to be kicked from close distance is to move towards it and turn their face/head around to protect it. This is something I see from many decent players even at grassroots. I see putting your hand up to protect yourself mostly at lower level skills and divisions.
The act of moving towards the ball itself means he is 'instinctively' prioritising closing the angle over self protection. At this level of game, and in this circumstances, I am not buying protecting himself as an excuse.
 
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