Liverpool v Wolves

[bloovee]

If drawing lines for offside is not accurate, then it is open to manipulation. It doesn't have to be manipulated, but if the VAR can draw lines and decide the moment when the ball is played (and a different VAR could draw lines differently), then it's not good enough.

 

[CapeTownRef]

Requiring daylight is not a lot different from the toenail crap. It still needs precise measurement
@socal lurker is on a better train of thought. Change the precision to which the decision is made. Only difference for me is that i would want more than one frame either side. I would also prefer a GLT style animation, rather than zooming in on blurry pixels.

Complete daylight between defender and attacker solves the problem. If there isn't a complete gap between them then onside.

 

[zarathustra]

Are the big fat lines you see on TV the same lines used by VAR. Or are they after the fact to make them more noticeable for viewers?

 

[Big Cat]

Complete daylight between defender and attacker solves the problem. If there isn't a complete gap between them then onside.

It definitely does not solve the problem. Separation of two players will still need measurement with equivalent precision
We'll go from a toe offside to a heel keeping a player onside. This would also require a rewrite of the Law

 

[zarathustra]

How do we get around the precise measurement?

The laws don't allow for any sort of margin of error, so the options seem to be either scrap VAR, rewrite the laws, or only use VAR for obvious errors when it comes to offside. I.e. don't get hung up if someone is 1cm offside, but do get involved if the assistant has obviously missed something you would expect them to see.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

VAR said ONE of these was a penalty...... I'll let you have a guess!!

 

[PinnerPaul]

Has any other league in the world where VAR is used had such controversy and butt hurt fans as England?

Is it a problem with the VAR protocol, or is it a problem with the way it has been implemented here?

Australian refs on here absolutely castigating it, Mourinho quoted as saying they have problems with it in Portugal.

Its NOT Mike Riley, its NOT the technology, its NOT us English - its the whole concept of trying to 'correct' 2% of wrong decisions using technology to stop a game that has always been 'non stop' for well over a hundred years!

Lovely quote I heard yesterday - 'If I wanted to watch a sport where millimetres mattered, I would watch lawn bowls'!!!!!

 

[bloovee]

Australian refs on here absolutely castigating it, Mourinho quoted as saying they have problems with it in Portugal.

Its NOT Mike Riley, its NOT the technology, its NOT us English - its the whole concept of trying to 'correct' 2% of wrong decisions using technology to stop a game that has always been 'non stop' for well over a hundred years!

Lovely quote I heard yesterday - 'If I wanted to watch a sport where millimetres mattered, I would watch lawn bowls'!!!!!

If the same I heard, it was "where you needed a yardstick every few minutes"....

 

[RustyRef]

View attachment 3964View attachment 3965
VAR said ONE of these was a penalty...... I'll let you have a guess!!

Comparing apples with pears - on the Leicester one the ball had travelled half the width of the pitch and he had an age to get his arm out of the way, the Liverpool one it travelled a vastly shorter distance. Not saying it shouldn't have been a handball against Alexander Arnold, but the Leicester one is a much more obvious handling offence because of the distance.

 

[RustyRef]

One by one this is killing football games as a supporters spectacle. They’ve given untrained referees a tool that firstly isn’t fit for it’s technological purpose but it’s being operated by humans with human frailties. We all focus on THEIR LINES, but they never publish exactly why and where the pass line was taken from, it’s all complete and utter guesswork. Blurred images and armpits are now the talk of a match not who's played well or whatever normal chat ever was.
Bin this version at the end of the season, or supporters will vote with their feet!

Supporters won't vote with their feet, and even if they do there will be others to replace them. And I've heard people say in the past that they have stopped watching football because of rubbish referees, and if VAR was scrapped they'd just go back to moaning about decisions being wrong.

I keep coming back to this but people have got what they asked for. They might not like it now but they wanted this utopia where all decisions are correct, as someone said earlier there was a newspaper survey done and over 80% of those that responded were in favour of VAR.

 

[socal lurker]

How do we get around the precise measurement?

The laws don't allow for any sort of margin of error, so the options seem to be either scrap VAR, rewrite the laws, or only use VAR for obvious errors when it comes to offside. I.e. don't get hung up if someone is 1cm offside, but do get involved if the assistant has obviously missed something you would expect them to see.

In the US, MLS has not added line drawing technology to the VAR booth. So the VAR team is looking to see if they can confidently determine the player was off from the video. That let's many close calls stand (in either direction), but we still get some very close reversals if there is an adequate cue (e.g., feet on the PA line) to make the determination. I think that is a better solution than the hyper techological solution.

 

[onthebrink]

In the US, MLS has not added line drawing technology to the VAR booth. So the VAR team is looking to see if they can confidently determine the player was off from the video. That let's many close calls stand (in either direction), but we still get some very close reversals if there is an adequate cue (e.g., feet on the PA line) to make the determination. I think that is a better solution than the hyper techological solution.

Although I think the only reason they have this system is because the technology required wasn't in place for the start of the previous MLS season and they have made adjustments with a view to probably bringing the technology used in the PL and other leagues in for next season.

I think that Australia used to take the approach of not using lines but then decisions were proven to be incorrect when lines were added post-match so they had to introduce lines so as not to undermine the system.

 

[bloovee]

Comparing apples with pears - on the Leicester one the ball had travelled half the width of the pitch and he had an age to get his arm out of the way, the Liverpool one it travelled a vastly shorter distance. Not saying it shouldn't have been a handball against Alexander Arnold, but the Leicester one is a much more obvious handling offence because of the distance.

Yep, on one it's hard to see where he could have put his arm (behind his back?), on the other he's wandering round the penalty area doing a star jump. I think you might be in a minority as to which was more obvious (and more deliberate).

 

[bloovee]

Although I think the only reason they have this system is because the technology required wasn't in place for the start of the previous MLS season and they have made adjustments with a view to probably bringing the technology used in the PL and other leagues in for next season.

What, even after our experience?

 

[socal lurker]

Although I think the only reason they have this system is because the technology required wasn't in place for the start of the previous MLS season and they have made adjustments with a view to probably bringing the technology used in the PL and other leagues in for next season.

I think it's more about the cost. MLS has nothing remotely like the budgets of PL teams--it's still a fragile enterprise as soccer is probably the fifth most popular team spectator sport in the US (behind basketball, American football, baseball & hockey) rather than being the top one. (MLS does not use GLT for that reason.) The high level line drawing technology is not just using a computer program--it is a tuned system that involves significant installation expense to create the 3D modelling to accurately drop the line down from a body part to the precise location under it. I think MLS is more interested in spending the money on bringing in or keeping better players than in paying for the line drawing technology--which seems to create as much controversy as it resolves. (And the collective bargaining agreement with the players expires before the end of the next season, and there is going to be a strong push by the player's union to increase the minimum player salaries (currently $56K) as well as the salary caps for teams. The MLS season not starting on time because of that union debate is a very real possibility.)

 

[Bromleyref]

Supporters won't vote with their feet, and even if they do there will be others to replace them. And I've heard people say in the past that they have stopped watching football because of rubbish referees, and if VAR was scrapped they'd just go back to moaning about decisions being wrong.

I keep coming back to this but people have got what they asked for. They might not like it now but they wanted this utopia where all decisions are correct, as someone said earlier there was a newspaper survey done and over 80% of those that responded were in favour of VAR.

When the only defence for VAR is “well people wanted it” I think that in itself is evidence that it is not doing anything to enhance the game.

 

[JamesL]

I keep coming back to this but people have got what they asked for. They might not like it now but they wanted this utopia where all decisions are correct, as someone said earlier there was a newspaper survey done and over 80% of those that responded were in favour of VAR.

Which is amazing. Anyone could have predicted this outcome,really.
Take this site for example, a referees forum. How many polls have there been where everybody unanimously offered the same outcome or conclusion? A rare event.
Pundits looked at the same different viewing angles and they couldn't agree the outcome.
VAR was never going to solve the issues people have with football. Let's face it, the problems that people moan about are partly what makes the sport such a great spectacle.

 

[zarathustra]

When the only defence for VAR is “well people wanted it” I think that in itself is evidence that it is not doing anything to enhance the game.

It is catching things that have been missed, and therefore they are getting to the correct decision more times than without VAR.

Of course, the correct decision isn't always the popular decision, especially in football where it is generally going to upset 50% of the people present.

 

[Bromleyref]

It is catching things that have been missed, and therefore they are getting to the correct decision more times than without VAR.

Of course, the correct decision isn't always the popular decision, especially in football where it is generally going to upset 50% of the people present.

Interesting that the IFAB felt compelled today to announce new guidelines on offside.

I think it’s past the point now where it’s just fans who are upset that a decision has gone against them - I’m a Palace fan and even I thought the Brighton decision was so marginal that it was ridiculous that given the current protocols VAR had to overturn the on-field call.

I’d actually be in favour of keeping it as it avoids the game changing clanger, but the way offside is decided at the moment is infuriating.

 

[zarathustra]

Interesting that the IFAB felt compelled today to announce new guidelines on offside.

I think it’s past the point now where it’s just fans who are upset that a decision has gone against them - I’m a Palace fan and even I thought the Brighton decision was so marginal that it was ridiculous that given the current protocols VAR had to overturn the on-field call.

I’d actually be in favour of keeping it as it avoids the game changing clanger, but the way offside is decided at the moment is infuriating.

IFAB have absolutely not released new guidance on offside.

They have simply confirmed what we already knew, the premier League aren't following the VAR protocol correctly.

I doubt we'll see PGMOL changing how they do things any time soon.

Although I suspect that there will be some unpleasant calls with club's about this, especially as it has been made public so everyone knows they're doing it wrong