Open Age Last minute penalty

[Monksie]

I had a big decision today in the last minute of the game and a decision where someone was always going to feel aggrieved. The away team are winning 3-2 and the match had been competitive, even but overall scrappy on a hard pitch. It was one of those games where everyone is calling for every push in the back so lots of appealing for nothing. I thought up until the KMI I had let the game flow and kept control well with 2-3 cautions overall.

In the 90th minute the home team attacked down the left hand side, the forward shoots and the goalkeeper made a decent save but pushed it out to the other side between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. The other attacker the ball fell to was under pressure from another defender but the attacker just about got there first. His powerful shot was blazed over the bar. A split second later the defender wipes him out and I give the penalty. For what it's worth I was very decisive and cautioned the defender (I thought he made an attempt for the ball but got it wrong).

At this point I was surrounded and told that it can't be a penalty as he had taken the shot and it can't be a penalty because the ball was off the pitch when the contact was made. My justification was that the defender took a risk by making the tackle and fouled the attacker. The away captain said he agreed it was a foul anywhere else but it can't be a penalty as again the ball was off the pitch. Not sure I've ever seen that in the laws of the game but it's put a tiny piece of nagging doubt in my mind.

I am 99% sure I got it right but would have loved to have a neutral there to back me up and give me their opinion. The away team felt aggrieved and the manager said I had a poor game, another player called me a cheat but I couldn't identify who it was so took no action. It was one of those days where you wonder why you do it and I couldn't wait to get home. I had a feeling with about 15 minutes to go there would be a huge decision i'd have to make, I could almost sense it coming.

Probably one where you had to be there but what does everyone think?

Whether ball was in play or not you made the snap decision at that time, players have to deal with it, the defender choose to make the rash challenge in that risky area entirely his fault. I say good on you for making a hard call, the amount of time they try and deceive you in making a favourable decision for them and they start quoting laws at you in this instance its laughable.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Thank you. Just to expand on this if the tackle was only slightly late which would have normally resulted in just a plain old free kick anywhere else AND no card the restart is just a goal kick?

Selling that might be a tad difficult if I have that right.

Yes, a goal kick.
Shout "Ball was out of play already, goal kick" and move to the dropping zone quickly.

 

[one]

If the challenge begins before ball out of play, but the contact is after, the player could still be challenging in a CRUEF manner with ball in play.

I think you are over complicating this. If it come down to judging ball going out of play while the challenge is happening then that is enough doubt for me not to give it.

On analysing this to granular levels, at the point challenge begins it may not be CRUEF and become careless (or not) some moments into it and then become reckless moments later and so on. But this is unnecessary analysis. The convention is (as you would with a pen in or out of PA) the moment and location of foul is the exact moment and location of first contact.

 

[JamesL]

I think you are over complicating this. If it come down to judging ball going out of play while the challenge is happening then that is enough doubt for me not to give it.

On analysing this to granular levels, at the point challenge begins it may not be CRUEF and become careless (or not) some moments into it and then become reckless moments later and so on. But this is unnecessary analysis. The convention is (as you would with a pen in or out of PA) the moment and location of foul is the exact moment and location of first contact.

Probably am, but in a VAR world, they would need to probably look at it that granularly so in a forum for debate not an unworthy concept to think about.
My point being if matey starts sliding in from miles away, shot taken and smashed over, then clatters the opponent, there could be an argument to say that his Challenge was CRUEF before the ball was out of play.

 

[Kes]

Not following your logic here.

That doesn't surprise me one bit James.

I kind of formed the impression from the OP that the challenge that came in just after the shot, in which the defender was "wiped out" was downgraded from a red to a yellow because he mistakenly gave the penalty. My post was of course only intended as advice and not a criticism.

 

[one]

Probably am, but in a VAR world, they would need to probably look at it that granularly so in a forum for debate not an unworthy concept to think about.
My point being if matey starts sliding in from miles away, shot taken and smashed over, then clatters the opponent, there could be an argument to say that his Challenge was CRUEF before the ball was out of play.

Agree about good for debate. Good debate broadens the knowledge.

I think even in the VAR world the first point of contact is considered. I do remember a review in PL either last or the period season for this exact case and the freeze fame for in or out of play was first point of contact.

 

[JamesL]

That doesn't surprise me one bit James.

I kind of formed the impression from the OP that the challenge that came in just after the shot, in which the defender was "wiped out" was downgraded from a red to a yellow because he mistakenly gave the penalty. My post was of course only intended as advice and not a criticism.

Ah! I thought that you were suggesting that any challenge, even when the ball was only just out of play automatically had to be cautioned or upgraded to red as there was no possibility to challenge for the ball as it was out of play...

 

[Mada]

Lots to unpick, i'm not going to be quoting everyone but I'll aim to touch upon the key points. Thanks for your comments, it's given me a lot to consider.

First I just wanted to clear something up as I re-read the original post and I think there could be some confusion based on how I wrote it. The tackle happened immediately after the attacker shot (i.e. split second after) rather than the tackle coming in once the ball had gone over the bar. I can see how my description could be perceived either way. I think some of the posts are focusing on me describing the ball being out of play and then the contact happening. The contact was immediately after the shot, the delay was minimal but equally it was a powerful shot so the ball would be moving quickly.

I'll put my hand up and admit some naivety on my part that the ball in/out of play didn't cross my mind at the time. Perhaps I focused too much on the actual challenge and the consequences of having to make a big decision rather than the ball being in/out of play. To be honest, this was only a consideration when I read some of the early responses. That's an oversight on my part and the main point that I have taken away from this.

However, I can't get the image out of my head of the attacker being wiped out. Can I be sure the ball was in/out of play? No. Was it a foul? 100% yes. Like I said it was a powerful shot which went over from 10-12 yards but the contact happened a split second after the attacker shot so I'd be lying if I could say for sure where the ball was.

What would I do differently next time? Well my positioning was good but I'd have given consideration to where the ball was when the contact was made. If I'd had reached the same decision again, I'd have been able to justify it better and the ball in/out of play would have therefore been subjective.

I can understand why the away team were upset but if I had gone the other way and awarded a goal kick with a yellow card (which seems to be the other option in law) I'm not sure I'd have got out alive In that situation someone was always going to be very unhappy with the decision I had to make.

In summary, I think I reached the correct decision but my thinking process and understanding of the law wasn't correct.

 

[one]

I can understand why the away team were upset but if I had gone the other way and awarded a goal kick with a yellow card (which seems to be the other option in la)w I'm not sure I'd have got out alive In that situation someone was always going to be very unhappy.

I have had to make similar decisions in the past, like in a challenge send a player off and also give his team the free kick. The key here is pre-emptive communication. Stop game, get both captains in and explain "Look guys, the first thing that happened here is for the ball to go over, so the restart is a goal kick. After the ball went over the late tackle took the player our recklessly (or UEF) so I have no option but to sanction it.". You then show the card and signal the restart. Even those who are not privi to the communication can see you talking to the captains and assume you have justified the decision to them.

 

[JamesL]

I have had to make similar decisions in the past, like in a challenge send a player off and also give his team the free kick. The key here is pre-emptive communication. Stop game, get both captains in and explain "Look guys, the first thing that happened here is for the ball to go over, so the restart is a goal kick. After the ball went over the late tackle took the player our recklessly (or UEF) so I have no option but to sanction it.". You then show the card and signal the restart. Even those who are not privi to the communication can see you talking to the captains and assume you have justified the decision to them.

Iirc Phil Dowd once did this in a PL game. I believe Evra was cautioned for a foul in the PA occurring milliseconds after ball went out of play.
GK restart, caution for defender

 

[Macca]

I am going to try defend how it should almost always be a penalty, just for fun...

If a similar situation happened on the touchline (ball went out a fraction of a second before a player was cleaned out of it), we would all give a DFK and there would be no arguments.

In the OPs situation, assuming the defender initiated the challenge while the ball was still in play, if the referee deems the challenge careless, then regardless of where the ball is when contact is made, the challenge is still careless. It's the act by the defender, not the outcome of the act (e.g. contact) that is important.
If the challenge was initiated after the ball was out, then that's different...
I wouldn't like to try explaining the above to irate defenders who may all be experts on the law though...

Now, if the ball is very very clearly out of play when contact is made, then that's different.

 

[RustyRef]

I have had to make similar decisions in the past, like in a challenge send a player off and also give his team the free kick. The key here is pre-emptive communication. Stop game, get both captains in and explain "Look guys, the first thing that happened here is for the ball to go over, so the restart is a goal kick. After the ball went over the late tackle took the player our recklessly (or UEF) so I have no option but to sanction it.". You then show the card and signal the restart. Even those who are not privi to the communication can see you talking to the captains and assume you have justified the decision to them.

Or alternatively just give a goal kick and leg it to the half way line. Some things can't be explained no matter how hard you try, and this probably falls into that category.

 

[Southerner In The North]

This reads as an error in law.

Subjective calls, fine, we can get them right, wrong, or inbetween, and, we can find a way to justify each outcome

if the ball is out of play, as if reads to be, to award the pk is just completely incorrect and there is no excuses other than " sorry i did not know the law" that will suffice.

I agree with other posters, this reads like you wrote it with a clear knowledge the ball was out of play, have been correctly told a pk is wrong, and are now trying to salvage something out of a bad situation.


there is very little sympathy for a referee entrusted with applying the laws, who, does not have a complete inside out, outside in, knowledge of them.

I disagree to me this read as it was travelling over but hadn’t gone out therefore would be correct my only thing would be that it probably should of been red in that case.

 

[Wolf_Ref]

Looks like a tough call. Yes when we read the LOTGs, it can be easy to say it’s an easy decision, but there are a lot, and when I first started, in the heat of the moment mistakes can be made.

Something you might have done is use your assistant (even if it was a club assistant). The walk over there to them and back will give you time to clear your head and you can also check with them - that would give your decision credibility.

Although I think that in hindsight you might have got this marginally wrong due to the ball being out of play when the contact came in, mistakes happen and good on you for coming on here to ask. Good to see that most comments are supportive and informative.

 

[santa sangria]

I gave one once. Context helped: serious second tier women, 3-0 up, volley diagonally about 15 yards out, big high contact in the attempt to block. I still had to sell it loads and was surprised that even the attackers were not that interested.

As said elsewhere I think this is ripe for a rule change that would draw attention to this, favour attackers and help more goals.

Until then, aporoach with caution!