Ref4Me

Open Age Last minute penalty

Mada

Active Member
Level 7 Referee
I had a big decision today in the last minute of the game and a decision where someone was always going to feel aggrieved. The away team are winning 3-2 and the match had been competitive, even but overall scrappy on a hard pitch. It was one of those games where everyone is calling for every push in the back so lots of appealing for nothing. I thought up until the KMI I had let the game flow and kept control well with 2-3 cautions overall.

In the 90th minute the home team attacked down the left hand side, the forward shoots and the goalkeeper made a decent save but pushed it out to the other side between the 6 yard box and the penalty spot. The other attacker the ball fell to was under pressure from another defender but the attacker just about got there first. His powerful shot was blazed over the bar. A split second later the defender wipes him out and I give the penalty. For what it's worth I was very decisive and cautioned the defender (I thought he made an attempt for the ball but got it wrong).

At this point I was surrounded and told that it can't be a penalty as he had taken the shot and it can't be a penalty because the ball was off the pitch when the contact was made. My justification was that the defender took a risk by making the tackle and fouled the attacker. The away captain said he agreed it was a foul anywhere else but it can't be a penalty as again the ball was off the pitch. Not sure I've ever seen that in the laws of the game but it's put a tiny piece of nagging doubt in my mind.

I am 99% sure I got it right but would have loved to have a neutral there to back me up and give me their opinion. The away team felt aggrieved and the manager said I had a poor game, another player called me a cheat but I couldn't identify who it was so took no action. It was one of those days where you wonder why you do it and I couldn't wait to get home. I had a feeling with about 15 minutes to go there would be a huge decision i'd have to make, I could almost sense it coming.

Probably one where you had to be there but what does everyone think?
 
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st john

New Member
Level 7 Referee
I think you've got it right all day long, the captain himself has admitted it was a foul and there is the answer. I believe we don't see enough of these decisions given by top level officials after a player gets shot away but then is clattered. I can only think of one, and that was in a Champions League Game when Rashford was hit after he shot wide at Old Trafford but I cant recall if the Ref was advised by VAR.
Because its not the usual outcome to award a penalty then its become another.......What Football Expects
 

RobOda

RefChat Addict
Level 3 Referee
told that it can't be a penalty as he had taken the shot and it can't be a penalty because the ball was off the pitch when the contact was made.
Not sure I've ever seen that in the laws of the game

It's under Law 12.4

Basically if the ball is out of play (i.e. out of bounds) then play is 'dead', so any offences occurring on the pitch can be punished, but you can't give a free-kick or penalty for them.

Say, for example, the ball goes out for a throw in and someone lamps an opposition player. You'd send him off for VC but you give it as a throw in.

This isn't something you see happen very often with late challenges or tackles though, as you're going to have to have a player be very close (or on) the touch/goallines in order for the ball to go out before a challenge happens. And of course, when it does happen, the attacking team will be screaming for the penalty/foul to be given.

I have to admit though, this is the first time I've heard of players arguing this technicality.

But anyway, I would go with the penalty, for one thing, you can argue that the challenge was attempted whilst the ball was in play, the fact that he's taken the player out a second later once the ball has sailed over is immaterial. I would have turned it around and asked the captain if it was the other way round would he be demanding a penalty, and I imagine he would have to put up a good poker face if he had said 'no!' >_> (And I'm sure the home team would have been surrounding you had you not given it anyway!)
 

Mada

Active Member
Level 7 Referee
Thanks for your comments!

The comment from the captain was interesting and what put that seed of doubt in my mind. One of the reasons I was very clear with my explanation around the position was because the tackle happened immediately after the shot so there is no real way to know if the ball was in/out of play. It met all the criteria for a foul however you look at it.

On reflection I did disregard the out of play comment having also not heard it before either and not linking it to 12.4 as you said @RobOda . Next time i’d probably have acknowledged it and challenged the fact that it would be hard to determine if the ball was in/out of play so we’ll treat it as being in play.

As you said, by not giving the penalty I’d have had the home team around me so I couldn’t win in that position really. The penalty felt the right decision and as @st john said it was what the game would have expected, albeit at a crucial time for it to happen :)

This decision did play on my mind, the end of the game was a bit intense and took me a while to think clearly again. A good experience for development but not the most enjoyable when you are in the middle of it all.
 

Russell Jones

RefChat Addict
Level 3 Referee
@Mada , from the description you've given, it's impossible for any of us to conclusively say whether it was correct or not. It totally depends whether the ball was in play when the challenge was made ... on the one hand you say it was "a powerful shot (from around 9m out)" and so the ball would have left the FOP very quickly but on the other you say "the challenge was a split second later" which gives the ball a fighting chance of still being on the FOP :) .

The biggest learning here is that you CANNOT give the penalty (or any other free kick) if the ball is out of play. You can however still sanction the challenge with a card if you so choose.

Given that, somewhat bizarrely, the accepted practice seems to be not to penalise challenges that take place after strikers have got their shot away cleanly, I'd be wanting to be 100% sure the ball was still on the FOP before even considering awarding a penalty.
 

Peter Grove

RefChat Addict
His powerful shot was blazed over the bar. A split second later the defender wipes him out and I give the penalty.
Based on the way I read this description, I'm afraid you've got this wrong. If, as you say, the tackle took place a split second after the ball was blazed over the bar then you cannot award a penalty.

You also seem to be saying that you thought it would be OK to award the penalty even if the ball was out, and you didn't think there was anything in the law to prohibit this - which is definitely wrong.

Now, I do see that later on you've back tracked and said you're not sure if the ball was still in play but the words above certainly make it sound as if the ball was out of play before the tackle.

I agree with @Russell Jones that you need to be 100% sure the ball was in play, before giving a penalty.
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Not if the ball was out of play, though.
Or even if he had doubts if the ball was still in play.

For me three decisions you have to be 100% sure of in football. Penalty, send off and goals(ball over the line or between posts and under the bar).

@Mada if you were sure the ball was still in then fair enough and what you had to do then is sell it. But as I said, if I am not sure I won't give it.
 

Ben448844

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Whether you're right are wrong, you got it spot on when you send whatever you give somebody will be unhappy.

Ultimately, based on your description of the incident, I'd want to not award a penalty. You csnt win either way so the fact that the ball could've gone put before the contact is your get out.
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
Level 5 Referee
I'd also add that if as you originally said, there was time (albeit only a split second) for the player to blaze his shot over the bar and then still be clattered by the defender, it's likely the defender couldn't claim to have been trying to play the ball at that moment and so should probably have seen red rather than yellow. ;) :)
 

Anubis

RefChat Addict
This reads as an error in law.

Subjective calls, fine, we can get them right, wrong, or inbetween, and, we can find a way to justify each outcome

if the ball is out of play, as if reads to be, to award the pk is just completely incorrect and there is no excuses other than " sorry i did not know the law" that will suffice.

I agree with other posters, this reads like you wrote it with a clear knowledge the ball was out of play, have been correctly told a pk is wrong, and are now trying to salvage something out of a bad situation.


there is very little sympathy for a referee entrusted with applying the laws, who, does not have a complete inside out, outside in, knowledge of them.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
These are difficult ones, everyone can see there has been a foul, and the attacking team will be wanting a penalty.

Untimately though it can't be a penalty as the second the ball crosses the line the ball is dead and the only possible restart is a goal kick. You have to try and get that message across to them, and whilst not technically the correct decision, it could be argued that cautioning the defender making the challenge is pouring extra fuel on the fire and you might be better off ignoring it.
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
Level 5 Referee
This reads as an error in law.

Subjective calls, fine, we can get them right, wrong, or inbetween, and, we can find a way to justify each outcome

if the ball is out of play, as if reads to be, to award the pk is just completely incorrect and there is no excuses other than " sorry i did not know the law" that will suffice.

I agree with other posters, this reads like you wrote it with a clear knowledge the ball was out of play, have been correctly told a pk is wrong, and are now trying to salvage something out of a bad situation.


there is very little sympathy for a referee entrusted with applying the laws, who, does not have a complete inside out, outside in, knowledge of them.

But hopefully, there is every sympathy for a (young?) Level 7 referee on a refereeing forum who pretty much admits that they know they've made a mistake and who, as a result of the responses received on here, is unlikely to ever make that mistake again. 😉🙂👍
 

Anubis

RefChat Addict
But hopefully, there is every sympathy for a (young?) Level 7 referee on a refereeing forum who pretty much admits that they know they've made a mistake and who, as a result of the responses received on here, is unlikely to ever make that mistake again. 😉🙂👍

Errors in law are avoidable.

Getting that call decision wrong affects the result, as well as potential misconduct charges etc ( if sanctions were issued), ref was called names,

All because a referee messed up basic law.

Only one person caused this one...


bottom line yes, harsh lesson,
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
Errors in law are avoidable.

Getting that call decision wrong affects the result, as well as potential misconduct charges etc ( if sanctions were issued), ref was called names,

All because a referee messed up basic law.

Only one person caused this one...


bottom line yes, harsh lesson,
OK, you can get off the high and mighty step I think. Referees make mistakes, much of the purpose of this forum is to help them recover from it, they don't need to have it drummed down their throat like this.
 

Murri O

Active Member
So hang on.

IF the ball was out of play and THEN the tackle was made what happens?

YC for late tackle. Goal kick restart?
 

ChasObserverRefDeveloper

Regular Contributor
So hang on.

IF the ball was out of play and THEN the tackle was made what happens?

YC for late tackle. Goal kick restart?
Red or yellow, dependent upon the nature of the offence. Goal kick restart.
As a comparison, if a defender in their own penalty area kicks the ball over the touchline then whilst it is out of play punches an opponent, the red card is issued and the restart is a throw in.
 

Murri O

Active Member
Red or yellow, dependent upon the nature of the offence. Goal kick restart.
As a comparison, if a defender in their own penalty area kicks the ball over the touchline then whilst it is out of play punches an opponent, the red card is issued and the restart is a throw in.

Thank you. Just to expand on this if the tackle was only slightly late which would have normally resulted in just a plain old free kick anywhere else AND no card the restart is just a goal kick?

Selling that might be a tad difficult if I have that right.
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 3 Referee
I'd also add that if as you originally said, there was time (albeit only a split second) for the player to blaze his shot over the bar and then still be clattered by the defender, it's likely the defender couldn't claim to have been trying to play the ball at that moment and so should probably have seen red rather than yellow. ;) :)
Not following your logic here.
 

JamesL

RefChat Addict
Level 3 Referee
At what point are folks here saying the foul happens?
Its a really interesting one and I think each situation has to be judged on its own merits.
Completely on board with ball out of play, then restart is according to that.
Law says is a player challenges in a careless reckless or excessive force manner they are penalised by DFK and sanctioned accordingly.
If the challenge begins before ball out of play, but the contact is after, the player could still be challenging in a CRUEF manner with ball in play.

Lots of you got this wrong and you go this right in this thread and the proper answer is, we can't tell you if you were right or wrong but here are the relevant points of law.

So yes, we are all now clear on offences with ball out of play but we still have to consider at what point the foul is committed before jumping to the right/wrong end decision.
 
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