The Ref Stop

Keeper Releasing the ball

W

Wolfy123

New Member
I was AR in my game at the weekend when for no reason the striker from the reds was trying to get in the way of the keeper for the blues drop kicking the ball up the field.

It wasn't like the blues were trying to get a quick attack away and the ball didn't touch the striker despite his best efforts so the ball landed beyond the halfway line.

The ref brought play back and cautioned the striker and gave a free kick. I questioned why he did that in the changing room after the game and he just said it's in the LoTG. It wasn't preventing a promising attack so I'm wondering what he actually cautioned for, I can understand the free kick.

Cheers
 
The Ref Stop
Wolfy123 said:
I was AR in my game at the weekend when for no reason the striker from the reds was trying to get in the way of the keeper for the blues drop kicking the ball up the field.

It wasn't like the blues were trying to get a quick attack away and the ball didn't touch the striker despite his best efforts so the ball landed beyond the halfway line.

The ref brought play back and cautioned the striker and gave a free kick. I questioned why he did that in the changing room after the game and he just said it's in the LoTG. It wasn't preventing a promising attack so I'm wondering what he actually cautioned for, I can understand the free kick.

Cheers
Click to expand...

1. by its own merits alone as you correctly say, its not a yc
2. the correct place to discuss such cautions is on the field of play. The referee has factually incorrectly issued a caution, its the role of the Ar as part of the team to advise as such. Should the referee still decide its a card, as Ar, you have fullfilled your role.
 
Anubis said:
2. the correct place to discuss such cautions is on the field of play. The referee has factually incorrectly issued a caution, its the role of the Ar as part of the team to advise as such. Should the referee still decide its a card, as Ar, you have fullfilled your role.
Click to expand...

i get where your coming from, and over comms it would be doable but in a team of three, at supply / contrib level i wouldn't do this and wouldn't expect my assistants to input into a decision like this. the only time I'd get involved like this was a pen or red card that I was 100% sure the ref had got wrong.

if in a debrief an observer asks why it's a caution and the ref says its in the laws as mandatory then more fool him but a caution for intentionally blocking a keepers kick is definitely supportable in law (as unsporting behaviour at the very least) although i'd agree there's no explicit requirement for one.

by flagging in this instance and getting the ref across you'll be instantly drawing attention to yourself and potentially undermining the refs authority.
 
es1 said:
i get where your coming from, and over comms it would be doable but in a team of three, at supply / contrib level i wouldn't do this and wouldn't expect my assistants to input into a decision like this. the only time I'd get involved like this was a pen or red card that I was 100% sure the ref had got wrong.

if in a debrief an observer asks why it's a caution and the ref says its in the laws as mandatory then more fool him but a caution for intentionally blocking a keepers kick is definitely supportable in law (as unsporting behaviour at the very least) although i'd agree there's no explicit requirement for one.

by flagging in this instance and getting the ref across you'll be instantly drawing attention to yourself and potentially undermining the refs authority.
Click to expand...

matters of fact must be cleared up on the pitch. Must.

I see your " by flagging..." and raise you

" by flagging your open the options for the lotg to be applied correctly"

comms should not have any influence in getting a factual matter correct. They are an add on to the basic principles of refereeing.

Obv regional variations apply but here, if observer asks why was that a card, and ref says, " cos prevented gk releasing ball" the finger would then turn to the Ar and " and whats your take on this?"

if there are three of you, you are a team, and, if you can correcf a factually incorrect decision, you simply must at very least offer input. Or, you all sink together......

this is an application of law error. Its correctable. But only with input!


Bench to Ar " whats that a yc for?"
Ar ' for getting in way of gk"
bench ' but is that a yc?"
Ar " no".

' no', but the ref says it is, is simply unnacceptable


opinions, was it reckless, did he touch the ball, fine, let the ref sink or swim on those, ALL matters of fact, not just, mistsken identity, are the responsibilty of the referee team.
 
es1 said:
i get where your coming from, and over comms it would be doable but in a team of three, at supply / contrib level i wouldn't do this and wouldn't expect my assistants to input into a decision like this. the only time I'd get involved like this was a pen or red card that I was 100% sure the ref had got wrong.

if in a debrief an observer asks why it's a caution and the ref says its in the laws as mandatory then more fool him but a caution for intentionally blocking a keepers kick is definitely supportable in law (as unsporting behaviour at the very least) although i'd agree there's no explicit requirement for one.

by flagging in this instance and getting the ref across you'll be instantly drawing attention to yourself and potentially undermining the refs authority.
Click to expand...
Ditto. Absolutely this.
I wouldnt flag it, and I wouldn't want it flagging.
It's an opinion call one in which I explicitly ask in my prematch to be queried in the dressing room (not this specific scenario but opinion based calls).

In response to the OP does not sound like a caution but one in which you just have to watch the referee hang himself out to dry.
 
Anubis said:
matters of fact must be cleared up on the pitch. Must.

I see your " by flagging..." and raise you

" by flagging your open the options for the lotg to be applied correctly"

comms should not have any influence in getting a factual matter correct. They are an add on to the basic principles of refereeing.

Obv regional variations apply but here, if observer asks why was that a card, and ref says, " cos prevented gk releasing ball" the finger would then turn to the Ar and " and whats your take on this?"

if there are three of you, you are a team, and, if you can correcf a factually incorrect decision, you simply must at very least offer input. Or, you all sink together......

this is an application of law error. Its correctable. But only with input!


Bench to Ar " whats that a yc for?"
Ar ' for getting in way of gk"
bench ' but is that a yc?"
Ar " no".

' no', but the ref says it is, is simply unnacceptable
Click to expand...

i'd disagree (as you might expect)

for an absolute matter of fact decision i could potentially see where you're coming from but i cant envisage such a scenario.

this one could easily be opinion / interpretation (as i said, a yellow here definitely supportable if administered for the right reason) of the ref and i wouldn't want to question / be questioned every time i make a call just because the AR didn't quite understand why the ref did something

Bench to Ar "whats that a yc for?"
Ar "unsporting behaviour gaffer, your lad has intentionally gone to block their keeper kicking the ball"
bench "but is that a yc?"
Ar " yeah, falls under unspecified unsporting behaviour"
 
es1 said:
i'd disagree (as you might expect)

for an absolute matter of fact decision i could potentially see where you're coming from but i cant envisage such a scenario.

this one could easily be opinion / interpretation (as i said, a yellow here definitely supportable if administered for the right reason) of the ref and i wouldn't want to question / be questioned every time i make a call just because the AR didn't quite understand why the ref did something

Bench to Ar "whats that a yc for?"
Ar "unsporting behaviour gaffer, your lad has intentionally gone to block their keeper kicking the ball"
bench "but is that a yc?"
Ar " yeah, falls under unspecified unsporting behaviour"
Click to expand...

No, certainly not every call, and, hopefully rare

that said as ref i would have no issue addressing an ars concerns.

as Ar, ( no surprise), am certainly asking the question on the park. " ref, just confirming what the cautions for"

as observer, am asking



this aint aimed at the op btw, just, in general.
 
es1 said:
Bench to Ar "whats that a yc for?"
Ar "unsporting behaviour gaffer, your lad has intentionally gone to block their keeper kicking the ball"
bench "but is that a yc?"
Ar " yeah, falls under unspecified unsporting behaviour"
Click to expand...
The only thing I would change here is the last answer. "If the ref thinks it is, then it is. Just like a foul it comes down to the referee's decision".
 
Anubis said:
No, certainly not every call, and, hopefully rare

that said as ref i would have no issue addressing an ars concerns.

as Ar, ( no surprise), am certainly asking the question on the park. " ref, just confirming what the cautions for"

as observer, am asking



this aint aimed at the op btw, just, in general.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but that's just not your place to do that, as an AR.
You are there to assist not insist, nor hold the referee to account on his decisions. If you need to confirm what it is for there is a whole changing room where this discussion can happen in private.
If the bench ask, and you don't know you say, I'm not sure but I'll find out at half time or you can ask ref at full time, simples.
I wouldnt be making a song and dance in the middle of the game because it simply undermines the ref and hinders match control moving forwards.
I'd say an AR getting involved here is well overstepping the mark of what is required and as es1 points out, yes help out the diabolical, every ref needs saving every now and again but to question a decision mid game... Nah!
 
Oh no, the idea of an AR dragging me over to question something like this is genuinely making my skin crawl. OP did exactly the right thing to keep this in the changing room - I'm all for self-reflection and querying after the game (as my posts on here will show!), but flagging and calling the referee over to "confirm" a clearly sellable caution does nothing other than publicly undermine the referee.
 
JamesL said:
I'm sorry but that's just not your place to do that, as an AR.
You are there to assist not insist, nor hold the referee to account on his decisions. If you need to confirm what it is for there is a whole changing room where this discussion can happen in private.
If the bench ask, and you don't know you say, I'm not sure but I'll find out at half time or you can ask ref at full time, simples.
I wouldnt be making a song and dance in the middle of the game because it simply undermines the ref and hinders match control moving forwards.
I'd say an AR getting involved here is well overstepping the mark of what is required and as es1 points out, yes help out the diabolical, every ref needs saving every now and again but to question a decision mid game... Nah!
Click to expand...

The referee team is required to make the correct call

its absolutely your place in that team to play your part.

offer the correct info, if ref decides to ignore it, fine, you have assisted

to see a factually incorrect incident and offer no assistance renders you inept.


nothing is overstepping the mark when it comes to a factually correct call
 
GraemeS said:
Oh no, the idea of an AR dragging me over to question something like this is genuinely making my skin crawl. OP did exactly the right thing to keep this in the changing room - I'm all for self-reflection and querying after the game (as my posts on here will show!), but flagging and calling the referee over to "confirm" a clearly sellable caution does nothing other than publicly undermine the referee.
Click to expand...

Telling someone in the dressing room also makes my skin crawl

tell me out there,where i can correct it
 
Wow. If an AR flags me to question my judgment its the last time I want to ref with him. We had an extensive debate on here about sometime back about when interfering with the GK can be cautionable. USB is a judgment call by the ref, and if ITOOTR it is USB, then that's what it is. The opinion of the AR doesn't matter. (And I'm in the camp that this is a reasonable caution--there is no legitimate reason to mess with the keeper like that and it is being done to harass.)
 
Anubis said:
The referee team is required to make the correct call

its absolutely your place in that team to play your part.

offer the correct info, if ref decides to ignore it, fine, you have assisted

to see a factually incorrect incident and offer no assistance renders you inept.


nothing is overstepping the mark when it comes to a factually correct call
Click to expand...
But its not factual is it? Its based on opinion of referee based on what he saw and his interpretation of the law.
Which is not for the AR to clarify in the middle of proceedings.
What you are doing is offering an opinion. You're not telling the R something has happened which has not, or that he has completely mis seen something, you are just directly or indirectly telling him you don't agree with his opinion and its inappropriate.
The correct decision here is made in the opinion of the Referee, not based on the questions of the AR.
Suppose you say to R, what's the caution for, his response, in my opinion it was reckless, what you doing then? You're either going to argue with him on an opinion call, or you've held the game up for nil reason and pretty much broke the team, to satisfy what? I think it's well accepted that referees don't get every decision correct so your assertion that a team MUST make correct decisions is a fallacy.
In fact, the laws of the game don't mandate it and actually offers mitigation for bad calls.
 
Anubis said:
Telling someone in the dressing room also makes my skin crawl

tell me out there,where i can correct it
Click to expand...
Totally disagree
On a game I did as an AR recently, the referee stopped play to b*llock the manager. No caution. And then restarted with a dropped ball.
That was his decision, as junior AR, would the referee really want me to request he comes 50-60 yards for me to question a) why he stopped play and why he is restarting with a dropped ball. No? It would have killed him for the rest of the game.
At half time I asked him, very politely what happened. He told me and I offered him my thoughts which were, why didn't you caution him and give the opposition a free kick from the boundary point where he was stood.
1)tbats the correct restart
2)if the behaviour is bad enough to stop play it should be bad enough to warrant a sanction (my opinion)
3) had you given a free kick there is a clear punishment
4) you'd have been able to take a better position from the restart given dropped balls AR ebo effectively a set piece.

Everyone was happy, civil, referee thanked for my thoughts and no problem was created and rest of game went smoothly.

I can only imagine that things would have been a lot different had I attempted to intervene. "excuse me, can you tell me. Why you've stopped play and haven't done x y and z".

Also I am very happy to take advice from often more experienced refs at half. Time or full time. I don't really want them undermining my role as the referee and my authority on the game.
 
Anubis said:
Telling someone in the dressing room also makes my skin crawl
Click to expand...

I hate this when it is an opinion thing. I don't mind if it's a law issue but that's super rare, or a communication/technique thing = absolutely fine.

But matters of opinion get on my nerves, especially if the A/R's like to pipe up and question the validity of a caution (which is correct regardless).

As to whether I'd flag for the blocking of a keeper release - no. I'd discuss this (if need be) in the C/R and if anyone asks me on the touchline I'd say 'caution for PIDM I'd imagine' and then hopefully the referee himself will say along the same lines.
 
Anubis said:
1. by its own merits alone as you correctly say, its not a yc
2. the correct place to discuss such cautions is on the field of play. The referee has factually incorrectly issued a caution, its the role of the Ar as part of the team to advise as such. Should the referee still decide its a card, as Ar, you have fullfilled your role.
Click to expand...
There's nothing factual about it. As several other people have already said, it's a referee's judgement call as to whether this deserves a caution.

Just from the description (and without knowing the overall circumstances of the game) I'd probably say this didn't need a caution - however it's ultimately an allowable call for a referee to make. It could perfectly plausibly be seen as USB.

As far as I'm concerned, an AR has no place questioning a referee's judgement call.
 
No way should the AR be getting involved here. It isn't an incorrect in law type thing, such as a second caution without a red, the referee has just decided that the player has been unsporting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top