The Ref Stop

Heard a Rumour .......

Kes

Kes

I'll Decide ...
Being a lowly grass roots type mortal like what I am, I tend to get information....... well, second hand!! :D

Everybody is aware of the imminent Law changes which are being brought in next season, but I'm aware that other stuff is being looked at too. I heard tell that there is an aspiration to do away with the current Refereeing Levels, in particular levels 6 and 7 in favour of something else.

So, can anybody advise me/us on:

a. Whether that's true or not

and

b. If true, what alternative level "system" is being considered?

Thanks.

Steve P. (Mushroom). :)
 
The Ref Stop
UEFA has an alternative system which has already been adopted by wales. Could be that?
 
I have been told by RDO what is going on but can't remember it clearly. The FA have decided that they are going to scrap level 6 and 7 and start with level 5. Then you have a letter assigned depending whether you are youth or other things. This means that as a level 5Y (5 youth) I can do one or two things that I couldn't do before such as ref some adult men games (I think). This will help with development. There are a couple of other things but can't remember clearly. This is due to come into place 17/18 season I think. Hope this helps :)
 
You mean like put a quota on how many Level 7's can go up in a season. Got stung by that one when I went for promotion a few years ago...
 
Bit confused by the notion to be honest.
Level 5 (ie Senior County Referee) and Levels 7 and 6 are not the same thing and nor should they be. I can't believe for one minute that all Level 7s 6s and 5s are going to be pigeon-holed in that way.
Can anyone else shed some more light on what is actually on the cards? :)
 
Kes said:
No advances from the floor Sir?
Or are you sworn to secrecy and cloak-and-daggerness. ;) :D
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I do not believe that The FA having spent so long getting the grade 1-3 into the modern era by introducing 0-10 will lump 5-7 into a single group.

I do know that next season Assessors and Tutors will not have to register as Level 10 (inactive) but will have a classification of their own, so maybe there is some truth in your rumour (see what I did there...?)
 
There isn't really a lot of difference between a level 7 with a few years of good experience and a level 5.
One has chosen to apply for promotion, one didn't.

In terms of ability and performance, there really isn't anything between them.

Plenty of level 7s capable of operating at the same level as 5s.

Would make a lot more sense to do away with 6 & 7 and then base appointments on experience rather than assessments that could've been done years previously and give no real indication to a referees current performance standards.
Of course there would need to be 'observers' to ensure that standards are maintained to fine tune critical appointments.
 
It would be a bit like that if it becomes the uefa style system it works something like this -> category 4 is the relevant section. 3b equating to English 5.

Category One - Referee: International (FIFA List)
1A Welsh Premier Referees
1B Welsh Premier Talent Referees

Category One - Specialist Assistant Referee: International (FIFA List)
1A National List
(Both levels can referee at Tier 2 of the Pyramid in emergency, viz. Cymru Alliance and Welsh League Division One)

Category Two: Cymru Alliance and Welsh League Division 1 Referees (who are also Welsh Premier Assistant Referees)

Category Three: 3A Referees’ Panel of the Directly Affiliated Leagues at Tier Three of the Pyramid (Welsh League Division 2, SPAR Mid Wales Division 1, Welsh National League Premier Division, Welsh Alliance League Division 1) and act as Assistant Referees at Tier 2
3B Referees’ Panel of the Directly Affiliated Leagues at Tier Four of the Pyramid (Welsh League Division 3, SPAR Mid Wales Division 2, Welsh National League Division 1, Welsh Alliance League Division 2) and at Area level and act as Assistant Referees at Tiers 2 & 3

Category Four: 4A Third season referees (and longer) who referee at grass roots level and are permitted to act as Assistant Referees in their respective Directly Affiliated Leagues at Tier 2
4B* Second season referees over the age of 16 who operate at grass roots level and are permitted to act as Assistant Referees in their respective Directly Affiliated Leagues Tiers 2 & 3 subject to having attended a Lining course as organised by the Area FA
4C** First season referees over the age of 16 who referee at grass roots level but are not eligible to act as Assistant Referees in the Directly Affiliated Leagues
4D Qualified and registered referees under the age of 16 (not eligible for Adult football)
4E Qualified and registered referees who are non active

* Minimum length of time in 4B normally to be two seasons unless exceptional circumstances apply
** Minimum length of time in 4C to be one season

All speculation, as this relates to the welsh system specifically.
 
Padfoot said:
There isn't really a lot of difference between a level 7 with a few years of good experience and a level 5.
One has chosen to apply for promotion, one didn't.

Wrong. One has been assessed and gained promotion based on set criteria, the other hasn't.

In terms of ability and performance, there really isn't anything between them.

Wrong again. See above.

Plenty of level 7s capable of operating at the same level as 5s.

Agreed.
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Experience doesn't necessarily make you a better referee. In the same way, being a higher level can't give you experience. :cool:
 
Kes said:
Experience doesn't necessarily make you a better referee. In the same way, being a higher level can't give you experience. :cool:
Click to expand...

Experience is more likely to produce a better standard of referee than not.

There are very few level 7 referees that I have seen, that have been officiating for a few seasons, that aren't capable of operating at the same level as a 5.
There are more level 5s that I have seen that make me wonder how they ever reached that level!

The most rigourous part of gaining promotion from 7 to 5 is completing the required amount of assessments.......not the actual criteria!
And of course, accounting for each assessors individual peccadilloes!
 
Padfoot said:
Experience is more likely to produce a better standard of referee than not.

There are very few level 7 referees that I have seen, that have been officiating for a few seasons, that aren't capable of operating at the same level as a 5.
There are more level 5s that I have seen that make me wonder how they ever reached that level!

The most rigourous part of gaining promotion from 7 to 5 is completing the required amount of assessments.......not the actual criteria!
And of course, accounting for each assessors individual peccadilloes!
Click to expand...

Possibly. That's only your opinion though. Level 5 is an anomaly really because it's the last level you can progress to and remain there without re-assessment (unless of course your CFA has reason to want to assess you).

I can quite categorically say that the application I needed to progress through the assessment process from 7-6 and then (this season) from 6-5 has made me a better referee.

It's completely illogical to suggest that any Level 7 who has never progressed, never been assessed and has remained at the same level for a number of years is every bit as good a referee as somebody who has striven to at least tick all the boxes required of the promotion process to Level 5.

A referee can have numerous failings as a Level 7 and never be found out. (Don't even go there with "club marks" ;) :D ). A Level 5 has to at least be "monitored" for a couple of years whilst being promoted.
 
No, the experience gained during the promotion process has helped make you a better referee.

And it isn't illogical at all. It's based on what I see week in and week out when assessing and when just taking in a game for the sake of it.

An experienced level 7 is perfectly capable of ticking all the boxes required to satisfy the promotion criteria for a level 5....the fact that they have chosen not to participate in that box ticking exercise does not change anything about their ability or capability.

I know you want to feel superior and special as a newly minted level 5 but the reality is that all you have done is ticked a few boxes over a period of time that a level 7 ref has probably been ticking for years but no one ever sees because they are happy at that level.

Of course, the feedback given through the promotion process should, if done correctly, improve every candidates refereeing, and I would advise every ref to try it at least once for that very purpose.
But don't fall into the trap of thinking that because a referee has chosen not to seek promotion that they are in any way inferior to someone who has.

It simply doesn't work like that.
 
Padfoot said:
I know you want to feel superior and special as a newly minted level 5 but the reality is that all you have done is ticked a few boxes over a period of time that a level 7 ref has probably been ticking for years but no one ever sees because they are happy at that level.
Click to expand...

It would take a lot more than a box-ticking exercise over the course of a couple of seasons to make me feel "superior, special and newly minted" you old goat. ;)
I simply say what I see.
The Level 5 referees I've observed and worked with over the last 4 and a half years have been better than all the Level 7's I've seen and worked with. The fact that you think it doesn't work like that is again, your opinion only and isn't in keeping with the way the FA system works.
Perhaps, before you continue patronising me Padders, you might find the balls to edit your profile (like the rest of us) to show what Level you are yourself. ;)
Oh, and for what it's worth, as I alluded to earlier, the assessment categories I knew I was going to be scrutinised under during the promotion process was something I committed myself to ensuring I knew well and strived to learn about and improve upon in order to make myself a better referee - age and experience aside. When I was a level 7 (three looooonng years ago :D ) I didn't. Application of Law, Position and Movement, Fitness etc. - experience won't give you these or make you any better at them if you're getting them wrong already and not being assessed. :cool:
 
The reason I don't publicise my level is simple.....its utterly irrelevant.

People will either agree with what I say, or they won't.....and I would rather that be based on content rather than some number next to my name.

You must either have exceptional level 5s or abysmal level 7s.....or maybe your perception is that the 5s were better because they were 5s?

You will notice that I said many not all 7s were capable of operating at the same level as a 5.... Of course there are poor level 7s out there....but the idea that only those who are assessed are capable of doing things correctly is flawed in the extreme.

Not a stranger to being out of keeping with the FA way of thinking....from coaching to refereeing.....and it bothers me not one iota.
I always thought that the basic referee course should have a much greater practical element instead of being nearly all classroom based.....and guess what?
I always thought that new referees would benefit from having access to more experienced colleagues during their initial steps into refereeing.....and guess what?

The FA is getting better at how it recruits, trains and develops referees, and the changes to the assessment scheme will improve things further.
 
When you're done gents. Old argument, let's not have a 2016 remix eh?

Funnily enough always with padders involved in it.... :)
 
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