Handball penalty - red, yellow, nothing?

[JoetheRef]

Hi Guys,

I had an interesting one yesterday in an OA women's match.
From a corner a defending player commits a handball offence by attempting to catch the ball - penalty kick.
In my view the offence was from a cross and so was not a shot, nor was it obviously about to land at an attacker's feet or head. She was positioned around maybe 7 yards from the goal and just past the penalty spot. Because of this I did not feel this met the criteria for DOGSO. I also thought the fact I had given the penalty meant that I could not caution for SPA as the promising attack remained in the form of the penalty. As such she received no sanction which I thought was a bit lenient but I thought I couldn't justify it in law despite the expectation of the game being a card.

Since looking at the law about cautions for USB
- Handles the ball to interfere with a promising attack, except where the referee awards a penalty kick for a non-deliberate handball offence.

Seeing as this was DELIBERATE handball retrospectively I think I should have cautioned her but I would appreciate other's views.

The CAR for the team who was 'a referee himself' and who had asked what signal I wanted for offside... Was adamant it should have been a red for DOGSO because it was deliberate, he was other end of the pitch so may have had a poor view but in my view this is wrong.

As always I appreciate your advice.
Thanks in advance.

 

[RefereeX]

As you've said, if you deemed it to be a promising attack, because the handball was deliberate then you would still issue a caution. Only an accidental handball (but still making the body unnaturally bigger) would result in no caution despite SPA if you're awarding a penalty.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

CAR spouting nonsense as per. But you’re right it should’ve been a yellow for SPA.

 

[WiisardNic]

Devils advocate question: Would you consider an amateur instinct as 'deliberate'? I've never had it happen in the penalty area, but have had in a womens game, a player about 5 yards from a kicked ball that was heading for her face catch the ball instinctively - then the ball just drops to her feet, realises what's happened and was then filthy with her self.

 

[CaptainsPlease]

Devils advocate question: Would you consider an amateur instinct as 'deliberate'? I've never had it happen in the penalty area, but have had in a womens game, a player about 5 yards from a kicked ball that was heading for her face catch the ball instinctively - then the ball just drops to her feet, realises what's happened and was then filthy with her self.

Relevant IFAB

 

[WiisardNic]

Relevant IFAB
View attachment 7660

Eh.. yes and no. If it just blocks the shot, then yes - that is relevant. But does that extend to completely catching the ball?

 

[RefereeX]

Devils advocate question: Would you consider an amateur instinct as 'deliberate'? I've never had it happen in the penalty area, but have had in a womens game, a player about 5 yards from a kicked ball that was heading for her face catch the ball instinctively - then the ball just drops to her feet, realises what's happened and was then filthy with her self.

I still think this has to be considered deliberate in a sense. She may not have made a conscious decision to catch the ball but her body movement was certainly a deliberate act if you know what I mean. It's hard enough trying to decipher deliberate from not without throwing in us trying to work out if a deliberate movement was instinctive or a conscious decsision.

 

[one]

IFAB media

Why do I ever need to use my head to header the ball when I have my hands "to protect it".

A better angle. I take that IFAB media also wants that applied to the professional game at the highest level. Do we really expect for someone who has been playing the game for a couple of decades, full time for a good part of it, to have a 'reflex' of moving their hands in front of a travelling ball?

Just my opinion but I think every single pro referee is going to give that as handball even if they have seen the media release.

 

[WiisardNic]

IFAB media

Why do I ever need to use my head to header the ball when I have my hands "to protect it".

A better angle. I take that IFAB media also wants that applied to the professional game at the highest level. Do we really expect for someone who has been playing the game for a couple of decades, full time for a good part of it, to have a 'reflex' of moving their hands in front of a travelling ball?

Just my opinion but I think every single pro referee is going to give that as handball even if they have seen the media release.

At the professional level, yes.

 

[one]

At the professional level, yes.

Is that your take from the media release?

My beef is with making it prescriptive or one size fits all. It is a very subjective decision and you have to be there to judge it, pro or grassroots. You can't just say it's handball or it's not handball without seeing the specific incident.

 

[WiisardNic]

Is that your take from the media release?

My beef is with making it prescriptive or one size fits all. It is a very subjective decision and you have to be there to judge it, pro or grassroots. You can't just say it's handball or it's not handball without seeing the specific incident.

I mean.. the way I read the release is that at any level IFAB doesn't expect a foul.

But I'm kind of on your camp (from posts above) that at a professional level, these 'instincts' are generally bred out at this point of a player's career, so the game would expect a foul (except of course in a defensive free kick wall).

I did raise a personal example, but that has two differences:
1) it's at grassroots level for women's football, so the game wouldn't expect a foul (IMO) if a ball coming at chest/neck height is blocked in that fashion
2) The example I raised also includes a catch. If the ball is caught like that, whether by amateur instinct or not, I would be giving a foul. The question I'm raising is, in the hypothetical it happens in the penalty area (with the new SPA/DOGSO/penalty handball laws), are these 'instincts' at an amateur level considered as 'deliberate'? (I would lean towards yes as RefereeX has pointed out.)

 

[socal lurker]

I still think this has to be considered deliberate in a sense. She may not have made a conscious decision to catch the ball but her body movement was certainly a deliberate act if you know what I mean. It's hard enough trying to decipher deliberate from not without throwing in us trying to work out if a deliberate movement was instinctive or a conscious decsision.

Definition in LOTG:

Deliberate
An action which the player intended/meant to make; it is not a ‘reflex’ or unintended reaction

as @one alludes to, what is fairly interpreted as reflex is skill/level dependent. In a 10U game it’s pretty broad and in a professional game it’s pretty narrow. It’s a sliding scale in between.

Even if the player is a also a GK or a basketball player, I’m not extending reflex to catching the balls—especially on a cross where the player had time to get out of the way if she didn’t use her head on the ball.

As for SPA, I doubt I would go there unless it looked like the ball was landing somewhere that had a really good opportunity (or unless I thought it was a cynical act, which does not appear remotely the case in the OP). I don’t think merely being a cross makes it SPA. (Edit: my view on SPA has nothing to with non-deliberate. I think the catch has to be considered deliberate.)

 

[bester]

Is that your take from the media release?

My beef is with making it prescriptive or one size fits all. It is a very subjective decision and you have to be there to judge it, pro or grassroots. You can't just say it's handball or it's not handball without seeing the specific incident.

There's a balance.

Until that was released nearly every post regarding protecting your face with your arms on this forum said it was an offence.
Give it a few months and someone (probably the same people) will repeat it and I'll dig out that Q&A