A&H

Junior/Youth Friendly club Lino

ref craig said:
@GraemeS I'm afraid I disagree with you if you had of seen the way he had done it you would of agreed with my point of you I'll respect a referee for making a mistake but the way he overruled me yesterday yes I can understand the overrule but Not being rude

This is reason

1. I've put my flag to him that this player is offiside. He has not even looked at me to whistle to acknowledge so I'm now shouting him to get his attention.

2. He then shouts play on to say there's an advantage but there's no advantage now immediately my refereeing experience kicks in to stay firm to say no advantage is gained as blue team still have possession.

3. I now shout again to confirm no advantage and this is when he rudely shouts at me to say put flag down we're playing on.

4. This now leaves me looking like a plonker having to catch up to my second last defender.


Now also when I gave this decision as well the blue team manager who was behind me even agreed that his player was in a offside position and that there was no advantage now I did grit my teeth and got on with it but this referee was not one of the best I had seen the whole of this season and yes myself I probably not had best iver have had best season but when I run the line I don't cheat and even will agree with a referee 100% of the time on a decision that he has given against my team I'll even give advice to referee but on this occasion I felt that this one wouldn't of learned anything
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You were acting as a CAR, if the referee says play on then you play on.

If you had been a NAR in this situation would you still have stood there shouting when its obvious the ref isnt going to go with your flag, or would have dropped your flag and got on with the game?
 
The Referee Store
The referee won't care about club marks, you should never referee with an eye on them

Whilst the ref may well have got it wrong, he is the ref. Put yourself in his shoes
 
ref craig said:
1. I've put my flag to him that this player is offiside. He has not even looked at me to whistle to acknowledge so I'm now shouting him to get his attention.

2. He then shouts play on to say there's an advantage but there's no advantage now immediately my refereeing experience kicks in to stay firm to say no advantage is gained as blue team still have possession.

3. I now shout again to confirm no advantage and this is when he rudely shouts at me to say put flag down we're playing on.

4. This now leaves me looking like a plonker having to catch up to my second last defender.
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You're acting as a CAR.....I'd be quite short with a CAR that was stood there shouting at me that there was no advantage.......the clue is in the title...."assist" not "insist".

ref craig said:
I'll even give advice to referee but on this occasion I felt that this one wouldn't of learned anything
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You're a level 7 referee acting as a CAR, who on this occasion has proper got his arse in his hand over a decision.....would you listen to someone who has just stood on the touchline and spat their dummy out about an advantage then claimed to be a referee who wanted to offer you advice?
The referee might have been a Senior County Referee with 30 yrs of experience, including time spent at much higher levels during their younger days.......what advice would you offer them? Believe a CAR every time? They have to accept a CAR's decision?

Not sure what it's like in your area, but certainly in mine, I know 80% of the referees who officiate on my sons games, and occasionally even if I don't know them, they know me......do I expect to be treated any differently to any other CAR when I run the line for my lads Sunday team? Of course I don't.....I'll listen to their instructions (if they bother with any), and I'll do what they ask me to do. If they wave me down, or overrule me, then so be it.....i might know I am 100% correct, but it's their decision to make. Occasionally I might ask if they are interested in some feedback, some are, some aren't, most of the time I don't bother because I'm not there in my role as an Observer or Mentor, I'm there as a parent.
 
Sorry Craig, but you are the one in the wrong here.

You say that you've seen very clearly that the player was in an offside position, but how do you know that the referee hasn't seen the opposition play the ball through? How do you know that he hasn't seen something that you haven't? The simple answer is that you don't. As soon as the ref waved play on you should've lowered the flag and got back into position, throwing your toys out of the pram and shouting wasn't going to help anyone.
 
Got to agree with the above here Craig, if I was that referee I may have done exactly the same.

Job one for being a CAR - do not offer the information that you are a referee yourself. I don't know if you did tell him (if you mentioned that, I missed it...) it doesn't help.

Job two - do what the ref asks you to do. If he decides not to go with you, put the flag down and get on with the game. No more shouting or waving the flag once acknowledged. It'll just annoy him and he is less likely to go with you next time you put the flag up.

Live and learn mate.
 
Right I'll take this into another perspective as in post and by the way I was not insisting as it sounds I was doing what I would be doing as a neutral when they don't look and you need to grab there attention which is shout to grab don't deny yes referee had right to overrule but not in the way he did now let's put this into another perspective say that this is game with neutral and that same thing was to happen the teams would have rather have had the flag whistled than just turned down and played on this why I posted it for the debate
 
ref craig said:
Right I'll take this into another perspective as in post and by the way I was not insisting as it sounds I was doing what I would be doing as a neutral when they don't look and you need to grab there attention which is shout to grab don't deny yes referee had right to overrule but not in the way he did now let's put this into another perspective say that this is game with neutral and that same thing was to happen the teams would have rather have had the flag whistled than just turned down and played on this why I posted it for the debate
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I do agree that if the referee had missed your flag, it's absolutely fine to maintain your position and call him until he acknowledges you.

The problem we are all having is that he didn't miss your flag - he saw it and decided (for whatever reason) that it was wrong. As an assistant (club or neutral), the best thing you can do to help the referee in that situation is grit your teeth and go along with it. Anything else is subverting his authority.

With regards to this specific question, I've always been told as a NAR something along the lines of "offsides are yours unless you're wrong in law". So while I wouldn't expect a referee to overrule me based on thinking my judgement was flawed, I still wouldn't be surprised if he overrule me because the ball had been played by a defender etc. Or, as has happened to me once, because what I thought was a free kick was actually a goal kick that I flagged for offside from.

And so yes, I think even if I was a neutral assistant, I would still go along with a referee who waved me down - on the assumption that he should have good reason to do so and I must have missed something.
 
No, this isnt the same as a game where you flag and the ref doesnt see it. You flagged, he saw it, and he decided to play on. You, in your capacity as a club assistant referee, decided that the referee was wrong and kept you flag up and shouted at him.

As a neutral, if i flag for offside, the ref sees it, and decides that im either wrong, or that there was an advantage to the defending team then id go with him and discuss it in the changing room aftwr the match. As its possible he saw something i didnt etc. What i wouldnt do is stand there flagging and shouting at the ref, i would do my job, which is too assist the referee.

Sorry if this come across as harsh, but you were wrong, and if you did this as one of my neutral assistants i.e. kept flagging and shouting when id over ruled you then i would be less than pleased.
 
Craig, the referee didn't ignore your flag, he acknowledged the flag and chose to play on. It doesn't matter whether you're a CAR or NAR in that situation. The referee would not overrule without having a good reason for doing so, but even if you think that he was wrong, you lower your flag and discuss it after the game. In doing what you did, you undermined the authority of the referee and as @zarathustra says above, if you did that as my neutral assistant, I would be very, very disappointed.
 
I'm using this scenario to be in if I was neutral because If I was then it would not been an advantage it would of been given now going back to the decision as whole when the the referee did see my flag it was late blues still had possession so instead of blowing his whistle to say yes offside where mistake started he plays on now this is when one I'm now 30 yards away from my second last defender so there could easily be something that he needs me to do then and then it put also my team in a disadvantage as well
 
Doesnt really matter if the ref saw your flag a bit late, he waved you down and you refused, kept your flag up and shouted at him.

If you were a neutral maybe he would have given it, maybe he wouldnt.

Are you saying that as a neutral if the ref over ruled your flag and you thought he was wrong you would stand there and shout at him, rather than getting on with the game?
 
my other argument in this is you was not there so half you I can accept what you are saying but unless you was there you would understand on that this occasion I was right and that this referee was wrong now he saw my flag late and in doing so players from blue team still have possession so your telling me that if a goal be scored in this example was scored from even though player offside I flagged down how do you think kids are going to feel
 
If you were a neutral and the ref told you to put your flag down would you stand there still flagging or go with what the ref does?
 
I would of got on with it but would of told him he was wrong in law at half time full time
 
ref craig said:
my other argument in this is you was not there so half you I can accept what you are saying but unless you was there you would understand on that this occasion I was right and that this referee was wrong now he saw my flag late and in doing so players from blue team still have possession so your telling me that if a goal be scored in this example was scored from even though player offside I flagged down how do you think kids are going to feel
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2 points. 1: How do you KNOW you were right? How do you know that the ball wasn't played on by a defender? Or any number of other things that could have caused an offside decision to be wrong? The referee must have had a reason of some sort to not go with you?

And 2: The above is kind of irrelevant really. The referee is the man in charge and he is the man who gets to decide if an offside offence has occurred. End of story. He could have made the worst decision ever seen on a football pitch and it wouldn't matter - he is in the position to make that decision. You can be furious with it and think he's the worst referee ever, but when he waves you down, that should be the end of it. Keeping your flag up and shouting at him is not the appropriate thing for a CAR to be doing there, let alone a qualified referee on the line.
 
Im assuming youd wait to hear why the ref waved your flag away before tell them they were wrong in law?

It is possible the ref dropped a bollock here, and i dont think anyone has said the ref was right to wave your flag down, just that the way in which you ignored him and kept your flag up wasnt the right way to go about it.

If it wound you up that much then why didnt you ask him after the match why he didnt go with your flag?
 
Because I had heard from the captain of my team that he thought our team had a advantage and wasted it but even in this situation there was no advantage gained by our team and still he waves me down @GraemeS because you was not there I'm going to have to agree to disagree on this one
 
ref craig said:
my other argument in this is you was not there so half you I can accept what you are saying but unless you was there you would understand on that this occasion I was right and that this referee was wrong now he saw my flag late and in doing so players from blue team still have possession so your telling me that if a goal be scored in this example was scored from even though player offside I flagged down how do you think kids are going to feel
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Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter.....it's not your decision, it's the referees. Exactly the same whether you are NAR or CAR, you are there to assist only. The referee doesn't have to follow your assistance if they choose not to.....and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

If you can't accept that very simple premise then don't run the line. Ever.

As a NAR, you go around 'correcting' senior colleagues on a Saturday, half time full time or whenever, and you will quickly develop a reputation as being 'difficult' to work with.
Concentrate on getting your decisions spot on, as an assistant, signal them and if the referee goes with it, great! If not chalk it up to experience and move on. They will carry the can for any major errors, especially if being observed, and especially if you have correctly signalled but been overruled. Ultimately it's their choice to make.

Stop being precious about things and move on,
 
@Padfoot in my assisting career I have come to believe that if a referee has got something wrong in law to tell him that yes he has got something wrong in law would you after a game if you got something wrong in law and your refereeing would you like to be told in the changing rooms or would not like to be told I would like my assistants to be open about it and I am guessing you would to
 
The fact that you continue to argue even when you have been correctly informed by about seven referees that you were in the wrong, is a bit of a give-away. And you are going off on tangents about whether he saw you soon enough (doesn't look like it); understood the law (sounds like he may not have); or if he should be told at half/full time (certainly a fair point if you had been a NAR). But all these interesting discussion points aside, whether the referee was right, wrong, or Mr Magoo: you have no right EVER, as a NAR or CAR, to keep your flag up once he shouts play on. We don't need to "have been there"; your own words condemn you. End of story.
 
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