Everton vs Man Utd
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Posted a topic on this at exactly the same time, so moved mine into here and closed it.
There was a very lengthy VAR offside check for Beto's goal, there was no question of him being in an offside position at the point of the pass that he scored from and rather they seemed to be checking an earlier phase of play. There was no doubt that Beto was stood offside at this time, but he didn't challenge an opponent or attempt to play the ball, so I don't really know what Matt Donohue on VAR was checking.
The the real controversy came deep into 2nd half stoppage time. Ashley Young went down after manhandling from both Harry Maguire and Matthijs de Light and Andy Madley immediately signalled penalty. Whilst it was in the soft category there was definitely a shirt pull, but VAR Donohue recommended a review. During this they didn't show Madley the angle that showed most clearly the shirt pull, and most of the footage was from an angle that you couldn't possibly see it as the players' bodies were in the way. Madley took a long time looking at it, and eventually cancelled the penalty.
For me it was a subjective decision, some referees would give it and others wouldn't, but there is no way on earth that VAR should have been getting involved. And if they do get involved they must surely show the angle that shows the shirt pull.
There was a very lengthy VAR offside check for Beto's goal, there was no question of him being in an offside position at the point of the pass that he scored from and rather they seemed to be checking an earlier phase of play. There was no doubt that Beto was stood offside at this time, but he didn't challenge an opponent or attempt to play the ball, so I don't really know what Matt Donohue on VAR was checking.
The the real controversy came deep into 2nd half stoppage time. Ashley Young went down after manhandling from both Harry Maguire and Matthijs de Light and Andy Madley immediately signalled penalty. Whilst it was in the soft category there was definitely a shirt pull, but VAR Donohue recommended a review. During this they didn't show Madley the angle that showed most clearly the shirt pull, and most of the footage was from an angle that you couldn't possibly see it as the players' bodies were in the way. Madley took a long time looking at it, and eventually cancelled the penalty.
For me it was a subjective decision, some referees would give it and others wouldn't, but there is no way on earth that VAR should have been getting involved. And if they do get involved they must surely show the angle that shows the shirt pull.
ladbroke8745
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I would love to hear the audio on this...
I know I am sounding like a fan here but, and I mention it again, the Brentford one was not looked at by VAR (sorry, VAR deemed it not necessary to send the ref to monitor and agreed with the on field decision) yet they get involved in this one?
I don't see enough for them to go against on field decision, especially after recent on field decisions not to be looked at again.
I know I am sounding like a fan here but, and I mention it again, the Brentford one was not looked at by VAR (sorry, VAR deemed it not necessary to send the ref to monitor and agreed with the on field decision) yet they get involved in this one?
I don't see enough for them to go against on field decision, especially after recent on field decisions not to be looked at again.
Runner Ref
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Think this probably sums up my feelings on it
For me when we (referees) award a penalty we are 100% certain about that decision at that moment in time. Doubt may creep in due to player reactions, but when we blow that whistle we are certain( whatever level we officiate at) So looking at this incident the referee is certain that he saw an offence (possibly offences by two players’ that convinced him that a penalty was the right call. VAR have decided (probably) that the Everton players reaction was excessive, but does that negate the fact that two Utd players had a tug of his shirt? So I struggle to see how the referee today made a clear and obvious error. I am bamboozeld by his decision to reverse the penalty award and even more so when like others have posted not all angles of the incident. 
I wouldn’t go as far as a cheat since he did have his shirt pulled on two occasions, but there is no doubt he was looking for a penalty. When a player pulls a player ‘back’, it seems very strange that the body falls ‘forward’ in theatrical fashion. Had he not done that then Madley may have stayed with his original decision.
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I saw the VAR footage online and thought, yeah I can somewhat understand why he has overturned it, however, this is rerefereeeing the game.
Since then, the other footage of the pulls has surfaced, which I'm assuming the ref saw in real time. Why wasn't this provided to the referee? It all seems.... Odd?
Since then, the other footage of the pulls has surfaced, which I'm assuming the ref saw in real time. Why wasn't this provided to the referee? It all seems.... Odd?
Not for me. The pulls don't impede him. They certainly don't cause him to collapse to the ground.
Runner Ref
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He does get shown an angle from behind the goal, but it’s slightly elevated. The best angle was behind the goal but lower down. I’m guessing this was a TV angle rather than a VAR angle
I feel I should point out that pulling a shirt alone is not an offence - it only becomes an offence if it impedes the opponent’s movement. It appears to me that the only person who impeded Young's movement was himself, by choosing to take a dive after feeling the pull.
Just because the shirt is let go doesn't mean to say it is not a penalty. Is it an obvious error by the MO? I don't think so. He has decided at the time that it is a PK and unless VAR is getting involved to mete out any sanction then it should not be anywhere near that decision for me.
I think the thing is that AM thought he made an obvious error so overturned his original decision.
Not how it works. The holding must impede the opponent's movement in order to be an offence. The VAR deemed that to clearly and obviously not be the case. As did the referee when reviewing it.
Runner Ref
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And just because the shirt is being held doesn’t mean it has to be a foul
(I don’t like the VAR intervention but thought that is worth pointing out)
I don't dispute that the penalty was on the soft side. But Madley saw the shirt pull and quickly deemed it was a penalty, in that situation there is no way VAR should be getting involved. At no point did they show him an angle even vaguely close to the one that he made the decision from, they showed almost all replays from the touchline looking into the penalty area, from which it was impossible to see the shirt pull. Right at the end they showed one from behind the goal, but never the one that TV viewers saw that make it look like a clear penalty. Ally McCost on co-comms, who is one of the best when it comes to understanding refereeing decisions, shouted penalty immediately and before Madley blew the whistle, but Madley wasn't offered the opportunity to see that angle.
This was re-refereeing the game, and absolutely not what VAR was introduced for
Of course he would - back in his day (and indeed before his day, after his day, and all the way up to 2020) this was a foul no questions asked. It was only then that the definition of a holding offence was added to the LotG (and only tucked away in the glossary), meaning nearly all non-referees (and some referees) are none the wiser to this day.
If the referee gave the penalty simply because he saw the shirt being pulled, he's wrong in law and VAR had to intervene. If the referee said over comms that he believed the attacker's movement was impeded by the pull, the VAR has looked at it, seen that the attacker has flung himself to ground before any holding may have impeded his movement (meaning no offence was committed), recommended a review, and the referee has seen the incident for what it really was.
Not a penalty for me. The shirt pull was not sustained nor did it impact Young's movement.
The VAR also showed the view from behind the goal which did show the shirt pull so think Madley had all of the info.
I think that's a good VAR intervention myself.
The VAR also showed the view from behind the goal which did show the shirt pull so think Madley had all of the info.
I think that's a good VAR intervention myself.