A&H

Eventful game back

Thanks for all your comments - really appreciate it! I've definitely not described that last tackle very well. It was one of those where he leaves the ground momentarily, lands and slides, but in a manner that there is no way he was going to make contact with anything whilst he was in the air, because he's not close enough to the opponent, If that makes sense?! First one was similar. Again, he's got his studs up and he's jumped in but in a way that he could pull out if he realises he's going to take the opponent's leg out. The tackle that I cautioned for, but felt I should have dismissed for was different. Both feet off the ground and no control. He's going to take out anything in his path - fortunately he didn't make contact. I know I got this one wrong, definitely was a red. I think part of the reason I bottled it was because none of the aggrieved team's player seemed bothered by it. The guy who nearly got taken out just walked away - no reaction whatsoever from anyone. That made me doubt what I'd seen. I had the impression that I was the only person there that saw it as a red card challenge. Of course, it's a red card whether or not everyone else thinks so, but even so - when you're doubting yourself it makes making a match changing decision like that almost impossible to make. Like when we see a challenge in the penalty area but we're not sure if it was fair or not. You don't give it unless you're sure. The way around that I guess is for me to not doubt myself in those situations, and trust what I've seen, rather than doubting myself and making the wrong decision.

Dave - I live 2 mins away from where that fixture was - I'd have come down if I'd known you were reffing it!

As for the simulation, i don't think it's ever possible to be 100% sure. You'd have to know his intentions to be 100%. Saying that, it was simulation. Not only was the contact initiated by the striker (defender didn't move after the strikers last touch, literally stood his ground), but the contact that was made was never enough to put him on the ground. He went down quite theatrically as well, arms waving around, several rolls once he'd hit the floor. What annoys me most about that incident isn't that I think I got it wrong, it's that I never gave myself the opportunity to make the correct decision. Like I said, my thought process was 'was he fouled? No. No penalty', whereas it should have been 'was he fouled? No. Did he simulate contact?'. That's something I'm going to have to work into my decision making process for challenges in the box - penalty, no penalty or simulation, rather than penalty or not. The charging suggestion is definitely valid as well.

Markt - I really like the idea of questioning why you shouldn't make a particular decision. That's the sort of process I could've really done with for that game. On both occasions it would've been 'because no one is complaining, and the captain's making excuses'. Bang, red card.

I'm not beating myself up over this, or dwelling on my mistakes. It's only by making mistakes, analysing why I've made a mistake, and taking steps to avoid the same mistakes that I improve. I did it a few months ago - didn't caution a player for persistant offenses because I had 30 seconds of added time left to play, despite him being on a last warning. After the game, I made it very clear to myself that a caution is a caution, whether in the first minute or the last minute. Had exactly the same thing happen the following week but this time I made the caution. Very pleased that I learnt from the first time.

As for the manager at the end, I totally agree that I didn't need to listen to it. I always feel like managers have a right to ask about decisions that I've made, and they've got a right to disagree with them (as long as they do so in a polite and respectful manner). I like to explain things to them after the game, in the hope that I'll be able to educate them a little bit, and improve their own understanding of the laws (I.e. Just because you take the ball first doesn't mean it was a fair tackle!) I guess sometimes they just don't want to know - they're more interested in venting their frustrations rather than actually discussing the game. I didn't report the manager for misconduct as I didn't feel he crossed the line. He was calm, he didn't insult me - I chose to stand there and listen to him, don't feel it would be fair to report him for that. As for asking me not to report my cards (I did report them in full), if I was to report every manager who asked me not to send my cautions in, I'd be writing a misconduct report every week.

Padfoot - I agree. In this case, I was weak. I allowed myself and my decisions to be influenced by the sweet talking captain, and made several potentially match changing decisions wrong.

Capnbloodbeard - I don't know how I allowed myself to be influenced by the captain. In fairness, he's only the second captain that I've had that's actually stepped in and tried to talk me out carding a player. It's low level grass roots football I'm doing so the captain is usually just 'the best player' haha. Saying that, I think this is the first time I've allowed myself to be talked out of giving a card, or making a decision. As for handball, I don't feel it was deliberate. His hand moving up was a reaction - not an action that he'd made consciously. At least that's the way I saw it. The defender was very close to the ball, and he's turned away to avoid being hit with the ball. His arm hasn't really gone up to prevent the ball hitting his face, it's more a natural result of turning his body quickly. That why I didn't feel I could penalise him for it.

Dave - thank you for that :) it's nice to hear when all you get week in week week out is complaints and moaning about everything you do haha. I'd never done the home team before so I wasn't really sure what to expect. I know now hahaha.
 
The Referee Store
I've just re-read your original post. I think it is superbly written, and the overall language and tone says a lot about your confidence and competence.

I don't know your overall level of experience, but you sound like me and a lot of other refs who, early on in the career, get a feeling of almost guilt and try to see the best in players. You need to stop seeing players as what you want them to be, or as nice guys who made an honest mistake. They never appreciate it, the oppo never appreciate it and ultimately it comes back to bite you.

With the two foul tackles, I'd take the opposite approach to some of the advice here - give yourself thinking time. A long, hard blow on the whistle, a slow walk away (if you can) and just talk it through in your head. If you need 20 secs, take it and I guarantee you have a better chance of making the right decision. Also, get rid of the captain, he's no use to you and your attitude should be that nothing he has to say makes any difference.

I don't know if they were reds, only you can know that, but if you're analysing it after the event and you think you got it wrong then you probably did. Move on and learn.
 
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santa sangria said:
Which law is that in?
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Just to expand on McTavish's reply - it is implicit in the part of Law 12 that says handling has to be deliberate, to be an offence.

If you are absolutely sure that the handling was the result of an automatic reflex, then you cannot consider it as deliberate. A reflex is defined as "an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus." Involuntary in turn, means "done without will or conscious control." That being the case, it cannot be seen as a deliberate act.

As mentioned though, you have to be sure it was a pure reflex and not something else.
 
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Thanks Monotone Whistle - I'm a 7/6 promotion candidate currently in my second full year of refereeing. I definitely do have that outlook, and it's something that I've been slowly working myself away from. I always try to man manage games - I can certainly be a little bit lenient when it comes to cautioning or dismissing. I do get myself into situations where I probably should have cautioned, but find myself giving final warnings rather than exacting the correct punishment. That being said, I'm learning very quickly that if a player causes a problem early on, he's going to be a problem throughout the game - final warning or not. Again, it's something that I'm aware of now, so I can take steps to change it. I totally get your advice about taking time to make the correct decision - although initial reaction won't always make the decision for you, i suppose it's always going to play a part in the process. Looking back on other dismissals that I feel I should have made, but didn't for whatever reason, my initial reaction in every case has been 'red'. I think the problem is that I always try to justify escalating down to a yellow. Once I've found a reason to do it 'it wasn't THAT bad a tackle', 'the other team don't seem bothered' etc that thought then makes me doubt myself, which leads to me making the incorrect decision.

To clarify, this isn't something that's happening every week, and I'm not backing out of every single dismissal that I should be making, but its happened enough times for me to have identified it as a development area. And the whole 'stop seeing players as nice guys who made an honest mistake' is definitely going to help with that.

As for the discussion about the handball incident, 'automatic reflex' is about the best description of it.
 
Peter Grove said:
Just to expand on McTavish's reply - it is implicit on the part of Law 12 that says handling has to be deliberate, to be an offence.

If you are absolutely sure that the handling was the result of an automatic reflex, then you cannot consider it as deliberate. A reflex is defined as "an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus." Involuntary in turn, means "done without will or conscious control." That being the case, it cannot be seen as a deliberate act.

As mentioned though, you have to be sure it was a pure reflex and not something else.
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Erm, where in the laws does it say it is implicit?
This is another one of those cases where we use our common sense.
But, the problem with this is that allows John Terry to throw his arms up while sliding for the ball.
This is a classic conundrum, as given by the OP, with the defender on the half turn, turning their head, arms up...

You are inventing though when you talk about a reflex being some kind of exception.
If the same thing happens and the defender is in the middle of the goal, on the goal line, and puts his/her hands up near his/her head and the hands block the ball then you are probably giving a red and pen, right... ?
 
If I'm going to referee a game and another referee from the weekend before did not give a sending off and I then gave a card for that same thing the managers going to say well last we a referee did not send someone off for that but you have how do you think it's going to make me feel now a little bit let down
 
ref craig said:
If I'm going to referee a game and another referee from the weekend before did not give a sending off and I then gave a card for that same thing the managers going to say well last we a referee did not send someone off for that but you have how do you think it's going to make me feel now a little bit let down
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Is that going to make a difference to the card you give next week?
 
@RegalRef say I go to send off a player for like offinabus but the referee from the previous week did not what do you think a manager/player is going to say or do
 
They'll say that anyway.

The lad has come on here to ask advice, and taken the time to write a number of detailed posts giving as much info as possible.

You've written a one line reply that calls him last weeks ref. Piss poor.

He's not LWR. LWR flounces the laws because he is weak. This is mistakes and errors of judgement that he is keen to address going forward.

Nothing wrong with that at all.
 
Matt is far from "last weeks ref". He's a fantastic young referee who is still learning and applying his trade. Like us all, he comes on here for guidance, advice and reflection. There is a forum (www.cornwallfootballforum.com) that everyone uses down in Cornwall. As a referee I used to like giving my opinions on the games, just as I do when I play. People liked hearing what I had to say... Everyone but the referees! That's why I joined this forum, as with Matt, to share our experiences, other people's experiences and to broaden our knowledge.

Matt made all the correct calls in his game but questioned some of his decisions. Maybe he was a little bit lenient at times, but he's not one of these card happy refs I've experienced every few weeks since I started playing.

I spoke to the managers and a few players of the teams that he refers to in this game (I've got good friends in both games), each praising Matt to the hills.

Just looking at his detailed reports above, you can see he's got his head switched on and is asking the questions as he wants to learn. Who cares what the managers think, as referees, that's not our concern. When you ask that question, it makes it look like the managers opinions could affect your decisions on the field; that's not good territory to get yourself in
 
@ref craig - easy bandying about the LWR label mate. One of the worst things you can throw at someone on here and it is not called for. The guy is honestly sharing his experience and has highlighted his own development points. As others have highlighted we are here to support, encourage and help each other.
 
DB said:
Matt is far from "last weeks ref". He's a fantastic young referee who is still learning and applying his trade. Like us all, he comes on here for guidance, advice and reflection. There is a forum (www.cornwallfootballforum.com) that everyone uses down in Cornwall. As a referee I used to like giving my opinions on the games, just as I do when I play. People liked hearing what I had to say... Everyone but the referees! That's why I joined this forum, as with Matt, to share our experiences, other people's experiences and to broaden our knowledge.

Matt made all the correct calls in his game but questioned some of his decisions. Maybe he was a little bit lenient at times, but he's not one of these card happy refs I've experienced every few weeks since I started playing.

I spoke to the managers and a few players of the teams that he refers to in this game (I've got good friends in both games), each praising Matt to the hills.

Just looking at his detailed reports above, you can see he's got his head switched on and is asking the questions as he wants to learn. Who cares what the managers think, as referees, that's not our concern. When you ask that question, it makes it look like the managers opinions could affect your decisions on the field; that's not good territory to get yourself in
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Are you his dad?

He didn't make 'all the correct calls' though did he? Getting talked out of making the correct decision is not making a 'correct call'.

And unfortunately there is an element of 'last weeks ref' involved.....in that the captain may well try and talk next weeks ref out of a correct dismissal because he got away with it last week.

Your attitude is typical of someone who wants to be playing more than reffing.....which is why the two do not mix.
Pick one and stick with it. And if it's reffing forget your whole player perspective as quickly as you can......it's not compatible with wearing black. Never has been, never will be. Players are simply too narrow minded to grasp the concept that they are wrong or that it was their fault that things didn't go their way......not necessarily their fault as it is drummed into them week in and week out by managers who try to cover their own weaknesses by blaming the ref for their poor tactics, team selection and poor team discipline.

And God forbid there should ever be a manager who is also a ref........total hypocrisy and a disaster waiting to happen!
 
Probably one week or another we have been in this position and @MatthewC @SM @RegalRef @Padfoot

But we have to look and say what happens one week with one referee and then what happens to another and if one referee deals with that the next one did not we then obviously we try to meet in the middle where last week ref has done something good and so has the week after so then teams know that referees are not going to faulter.

If his young and learning then my apologies If thou can work on stamping your authority early doors Matt that will sometimes help how tall you Matt if you don't mind me asking
 
MatthewC said:
they're already in trouble with the FA and he'll get hammered.
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At this point I'd be feeling pretty validated with your 5 cautions if I were you.
Although you may feel you could have shown different colours, 5 cautions is not to be sniffed at and that team has been left in no doubt they're behaviour has been unacceptable on the day.
I doubt anyone is coming away from that game thinking they "got one over on the ref"
 
santa sangria said:
Erm, where in the laws does it say it is implicit?
This is another one of those cases where we use our common sense.
But, the problem with this is that allows John Terry to throw his arms up while sliding for the ball.
This is a classic conundrum, as given by the OP, with the defender on the half turn, turning their head, arms up...

You are inventing though when you talk about a reflex being some kind of exception.
If the same thing happens and the defender is in the middle of the goal, on the goal line, and puts his/her hands up near his/her head and the hands block the ball then you are probably giving a red and pen, right... ?
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1) You're correct. It isn't implicit. It's actually explicit - it doesn't suggest it must be deliberate, but states it in black and white - literally!!

2)Why does it allow a player to throw their arms up when sliding for their ball, or arms out to the side while turning away from the ball? In those cases, like jumping for a ball, the player can control where their arms go (as opposed to, say, when they're losing their footing). So they have completely control over their arms, so can still definitely be penalised. As opposed to a self-protective reflex where you don't have that control

3)I find it amusing that you accuse others of inventing the Laws then provide an example to imply that field position is in any way relevant. Who's doing the inventing here? If accidental handling stops a goal or scores one, then so be it. If you don't have the courage to make the correct decision, then hand your badge to somebody who does. Accidental handling is accidental no matter where it is.

How is a self-protective reflext deliberate handling? How is it avoidable by the player?
Padfoot said:
Are you his dad?

He didn't make 'all the correct calls' though did he? Getting talked out of making the correct decision is not making a 'correct call'.
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Does it make you feel bigger and better belittling somebody who comes on here asking for help? Time for you to reconsider the entire purpose of this forum, champ. Drop the attitude before you bother making another post. He's been completely honest with his mistakes - the only difference between him and you is that he had the courage to publicly acknowledge his mistakes. How many times have you been Last Week's Ref, padfoot?

Being 'Last Week's Ref' isn't a criticism on people who make honest mistakes or who learn from bad games. That moniker is for referees who simple don't bother or don't care to know the laws/interpretations, don't have the courage to apply them correctly or otherwise choose not to.

Padfoot said:
Your attitude is typical of someone who wants to be playing more than reffing.....which is why the two do not mix.
Pick one and stick with it. And if it's reffing forget your whole player perspective as quickly as you can......it's not compatible with wearing black. Never has been, never will be. Players are simply too narrow minded to grasp the concept that they are wrong or that it was their fault that things didn't go their way......not necessarily their fault as it is drummed into them week in and week out by managers who try to cover their own weaknesses by blaming the ref for their poor tactics, team selection and poor team discipline.

And God forbid there should ever be a manager who is also a ref........total hypocrisy and a disaster waiting to happen!
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That's a truly disgusting post Padfoot, and you owe your colleague a public apology. Bullying WILL NOT BE TOLERATED ON HERE.

I honestly can't believe SM hasn't given you a short ban after that. Aside from being a completely malicious and unfounded personal attack on another member - and I can't imagine any purpose other than sheer bullying - it's also an utter load of crap; many referees successfully balance playing or managing and refereeing without a problem, and it's not really until you start reaching high levels of either that you really need to make a choice.

People on here have a bit of a chuckle that you're normally a bit of a stickler for the laws, but your posts typically haven't been worse than that. We've certainly seen a far more sinister side of yourself today. I truly hope we don't see it again. The saying 'there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers' comes to mind. No matter what has happened, this needs to be a welcoming, supporting and encouraging environment for people who are looking for education and opinions, not to have people jump on their high horse and do their best to make them feel utterly worthless for not being perfect.
 
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