A&H

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santa sangria said:
My point is, and I did not state it explicitly, that I do not see how a player putting their arms up in front of their face can be classed/seen/interpreted as a non-deliberate action. I hear "reflex". Is it? Isn't it a player deliberately blocking the ball from hitting them? At what competence level or speed does this become a reflex, and who can judge this.

What I did say, and I will say again, there is no exception in the law for self defence... and there is no exception in the law for a reflex. It is poorly worded.

(I obviously do understand what implicit means;))
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Let's see if I can make this simpler. A reflex is defined as an involuntary response. Involuntary means not deliberate. Handling which is not deliberate, is not an offence.

As for "who can judge this" - well, that would be the referee. However, having said all that, please note that I also qualified what I said, in my first post on this issue, by pointing out that:
you have to be sure it was a pure reflex and not something else.
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To sum up - if you, as the referee (and the person solely responsible for making this decision and all others in the game) decide that what caused the contact between the ball and a player's hand was an involuntary action on the part of the player, then you cannot penalise it as a handling offence. If on the other hand you do not believe it was an involuntary reflex but rather a deliberate action, then you must award a free-kick (or penalty, as the case may be).

What you can't say (although you seem to be making a valiant effort to do so) is that something which is an involuntary response (i.e. a reflex) can be considered a deliberate handling offence. Once again though, it's your perogative as the sole arbiter of facts as they relate to matters on the field of play, to decide if it was a reflex or not.
 
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This "reflex" action thing is a difficult one I must say. I suppose you have to just go with your gut and call it as you see it at that moment, in spite of what the players might protest or claim. Have we really got the right to say that a player shouldn't be able to protect himself from physical pain or injury? As per the LOTG, the answer is yes, if it's handball, and his hands have deliberately moved into or remained in the path of the ball then it's tough titty innit! (?)
Say for instance you clock one player flying into a rage and assaulting another. He begins swinging vicious punches and kicks in a full on assault at the other player who, in self defence (because for most people it's a natural or one might argue almost involuntary action ;) ) swings a punch or two in his assailant's direction as a means of trying to protect himself from serious or further injury. It's still violent conduct from both, and the LOTG say they both have to be sent off, which you'd do. Wouldn't you? :)
 
You're comparing apples and oranges. There's a clear difference between an understandable, almost natural reaction and an involuntary response. Yes, most people will respond if attacked. However, can a person who is attacked, choose not to fight back? Clearly, the answer is yes. Some people when attacked, will simply cover up and/or try to escape the assault. The person who is being attacked has a choice of whether to respond in kind, or not. With an involuntary response however, the person has no choice in the matter.
 
Kes said:
This "reflex" action thing is a difficult one I must say. I suppose you have to just go with your gut and call it as you see it at that moment, in spite of what the players might protest or claim. Have we really got the right to say that a player shouldn't be able to protect himself from physical pain or injury? As per the LOTG, the answer is yes, if it's handball, and his hands have deliberately moved into or remained in the path of the ball then it's tough titty innit! (?)
Say for instance you clock one player flying into a rage and assaulting another. He begins swinging vicious punches and kicks in a full on assault at the other player who, in self defence (because for most people it's a natural or one might argue almost involuntary action ;) ) swings a punch or two in his assailant's direction as a means of trying to protect himself from serious or further injury. It's still violent conduct from both, and the LOTG say they both have to be sent off, which you'd do. Wouldn't you? :)
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But Kes, as you know VC, SFP or any other penal offence doesn't have to be "deliberate", so not the same thing at all!
 
PinnerPaul said:
But Kes, as you know VC, SFP or any other penal offence doesn't have to be "deliberate", so not the same thing at all!
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My point was, that we seem keen to forgive something on the basis of it being "reflex" or "natural" but only in certain circumstances.

And I don't quite agree with all of your assertion above Paul.

I could argue that SFP and VC are by their very nature, deemed to be "deliberate". :)
 
Kes said:
My point was, that we seem keen to forgive something on the basis of it being "reflex" or "natural" but only in certain circumstances.

And I don't quite agree with all of your assertion above Paul.

I could argue that SFP and VC are by their very nature, deemed to be "deliberate". :)
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You're straying into MOTD punditry there - "can't be a red card, he's not that sort of player"!;)
 
santa sangria said:
I am not trying to argue. I am trying to establish what it says in the laws and where we are actually using our common sense, and how to interpret.
It is strange that with handball, we do have an allowance to consider how close and what speed. These are the two lines to consider:

• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
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If we really want to be pedantic, this is what should be thinking about according to FIFA's latest considerations document that came out spring 2015 (with the numbers from the document):

41 Is the hand moving towards the ball or is the ball moving towards the hand?
42 Are the player's hands or arms in a "NATURAL POSITION" or an "UNNATURAL POSITION"?
43 Does the player attempt to avoid the ball striking his hand?
44 Does the ball strike his hand from a short or from a long distance?
45 Does the player use his hand or arm to deliberately touch or block the ball?
46 Does the player prevent an opponent gaining possession of the ball by handling it?
47 Does the player attempt to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball?
48 Does the player prevent a goal by deliberately handling the ball?
49 Does the player prevent an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball?
50 Does the player try to deceive the referee by handling the ball?
 
AlexF said:
If we really want to be pedantic, this is what should be thinking about according to FIFA's latest considerations document that came out spring 2015 (with the numbers from the document):

41 Is the hand moving towards the ball or is the ball moving towards the hand?
42 Are the player's hands or arms in a "NATURAL POSITION" or an "UNNATURAL POSITION"?
43 Does the player attempt to avoid the ball striking his hand?
44 Does the ball strike his hand from a short or from a long distance?
45 Does the player use his hand or arm to deliberately touch or block the ball?
46 Does the player prevent an opponent gaining possession of the ball by handling it?
47 Does the player attempt to score a goal by deliberately handling the ball?
48 Does the player prevent a goal by deliberately handling the ball?
49 Does the player prevent an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball?
50 Does the player try to deceive the referee by handling the ball?
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Which is why the whole debate about an 'involuntary reflex' is an interesting one. Because the answer to 41 above is a definite yes and 43 a definite no and both of these things don't help the player's cause. However the crux of the argument against penalising someone who is protecting themselves is that it's an entirely normal, expected thing to do and therefore with regard to 42 it's a natural position.

For me, if the ball hitting the hand has simply stopped it hitting a particularly vulnerable part of the body instead, then I'm not penalising unless the player had plenty of time to choose an alternative course of action.
 
Play 44 into the equation too... my understanding of that is that "short" and "long" mean different things to a professional player vs a U11 player (for example). Professional players can react much more quickly and thus the "short distance" is really short for them...
 
I hear Pete and I want to agree (I do agree;)), but reflex or self defence is not in the laws and we have no guidance in the laws (unless #44 it is a short distance away - but as said earlier, even the idea of #44 is that it precludes defender having the chance to react reflexively or not).

Under 41, 42, 43, 45, going back to the original point, according the laws, sticking your hands in front of your face, a***, or whatever, and blocking the ball with your hands is a foul. It obviously shouldn't be. And we have to use common sense, not referred to in the laws, and account for the level of the players, likelihood of injury etc etc.

And I still do not like JT for getting away with it all these years!
 
santa sangria said:
I hear Pete and I want to agree (I do agree;)), but reflex or self defence is not in the laws and we have no guidance in the laws
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But what IS in the laws is the basic idea that to penalise handball it needs to be deliberate. And those of us proposing the reflex / self defence position believe that, by definition, these kind of actions are NOT deliberate. I'll give you a (hopefully amusing and relevant!) non football example. When I'm sitting down and drop something from my hands, I instinctively move my legs together to try and catch it. Most of the time it's food and I really really wish I hadn't done it .. but I can't stop myself, it's a reflex action :). Which often means I get food on my trousers .. and it's very annoying :). Trust me, this action is not deliberate!
 
...whereas I am such a ninja that I consciously move my legs to catch it... there's a bring your dinner joke here somewhere...

I am jumping up in the wall so I am putting my hands up over my precious nose job - it's instinctive and deliberate.... oh
 
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