Eventful end to the match!

[Ben448844]

Yeah, one of the least-logic aspect of the sin-bin protocols for me. Everyone and their dog knows what a red card means - that player can no longer participate and his team now play the rest of the game a man short. In the situations described by @Eddie , @Gamespoiler and others above, it would make so much more sense for the protocols to require a red card at that point (and for any other details such as where the player can go, to match up with what we're all used to from a red card)

As it is, no-one quite knows what's happened and you get a complex mess of results.

The difficulty is the sheer amount of communication needed in some circumstances, which wouldn't be needed should we have the capability of showing a red card.

For example, 1 yellow for USB and 2 dissent yellows = cannot return and cannot be replaced. I very much doubt either of the 2 coaching teams or sets of players will know whats going on once you've shown that 3rd yellow. You've got to explain it all to both sets of coaches and then deal with all the questions from the players. You could ignore them but I suspect you'll get both teams just genuinely wanting to know whats going on because they've never seen this before.

A red card following the 3rd yellow and everyone knows instantly and you've not got several minutes of confusement to sort.

 

[Ben448844]

No worries. Sin Bins can help us with Match Control and I'm happy enough that they brought them in. I've never done it, but I'm fairly certain two Sin Bins in quick succession would work against us, for reasons I can't put into words. My method WRT C2 Sin Bin, is a 'flash and dash', negating the player's opportunity to have a second bite (or to be far enough away to adopt selective hearing). I think this is quite an important topic because it's sure to be a frequent occurrence

I understand the time and place where a flash yellow is ideal, but I tend to go for a different approach. I slow it down and explain clearly why I'm issuing a sin bin yellow and what that means to the player. But I try and do this near the captain or manager. Once they've seen me slowly take the offenders name and number and hear the explanation, the frustration at me for about to give the dissent yellow moves towards ensuring the player shuts up or he will get a second. Thats the best bit about the sin bin process for me, you can get the captain/manager or even a senior player to referee the offending player for you. Not always the case of course, its about reading the room. Sometimes the offending player is 50 yards from the coach/captain etc and its just easier to flash the card and get out the way and let him calm down during his long walk to the touchline.

 

[Eddie]

No worries. Sin Bins can help us with Match Control and I'm happy enough that they brought them in. I've never done it, but I'm fairly certain two Sin Bins in quick succession would work against us, for reasons I can't put into words. My method WRT C2 Sin Bin, is a 'flash and dash', negating the player's opportunity to have a second bite (or to be far enough away to adopt selective hearing). I think this is quite an important topic because it's sure to be a frequent occurrence

Got to be honest big cat I don’t agree i should’ve accepted him escalating the level of dissent following the first C2, and deciding to let it go. When I issue a C2 the message I’m trying to get out is that I’m not accepting it anymore, so it stops now or you’re off! By ignoring the not so discreet ‘you’re a disgrace’, I’m not reinforcing that message.

I’m happy I gave him the second C2 as he would’ve carried on after 10 mins and it didn’t cause any issues except me being incorrect in letting a replacement on after 10...which again is a boo boo on my part but didn’t cause any issues. Him being present on the pitch area wasn’t great but I’ll get guidance from the league on that. IMO they should be gone.

I agree that sometimes you do just ignore certain comments, something I’d done majority of the game in relation to this problem player, but when enough is enough I’m not letting go.

 

[one]

Got to be honest big cat I don’t agree i should’ve accepted him escalating the level of dissent following the first C2, and deciding to let it go. When I issue a C2 the message I’m trying to get out is that I’m not accepting it anymore, so it stops now or you’re off! By ignoring the not so discreet ‘you’re a disgrace’, I’m not reinforcing that message.

I’m happy I gave him the second C2 as he would’ve carried on after 10 mins and it didn’t cause any issues except me being incorrect in letting a replacement on after 10...which again is a boo boo on my part but didn’t cause any issues. Him being present on the pitch area wasn’t great but I’ll get guidance from the league on that. IMO they should be gone.

I agree that sometimes you do just ignore certain comments, something I’d done majority of the game in relation to this problem player, but when enough is enough I’m not letting go.

This post sounds like you did what you did out of frustration and the player got under your skin. I maybe wrong but I have also been there and know the feeling.

If that is the case then it would be something you would need to work on. As referees everything we do and every decision we make has to be measured and controlled. Even show of anger. If a player gets under our skin, then that is the first sign of control slipping away.

 

[Eddie]

This post sounds like you did what you did out of frustration and the player got under your skin. I maybe wrong but I have also been there and know the feeling.

If that is the case then it would be something you would need to work on. As referees everything we do and every decision we make has to be measured and controlled. Even show of anger. If a player gets under our skin, then that is the first sign of control slipping away.

Yeah I suppose you’re right to a degree. I’m fairly relaxed on the pitch, I like to use the stepped approach with dissent (unless it’s way over the line) and this approach has worked in previous games, vast majority of players i referee get the message after a final warning. This guy had ample warning from the first half onwards and just carried on. I’ve kicked myself in the past for being too lenient with dissent, allowing it to escalate so I didn’t want to let it get to the stage where it gets abusive or seeps into other players behaviour.

I’d simply reached the end of my tether with him and it was textbook sin bin behaviour.

Whilst I fully appreciate and take your comments onboard in regards to being measured and controlled (they’re good things to focus on as development points), I’m not sure letting him have a final swipe at me by calling me a disgrace after he’d received an overdue C2 is the best approach here. Wouldn’t that send out the wrong message?

 

[one]

I’m not sure letting him have a final swipe at me by calling me a disgrace after he’d received an overdue C2 is the best approach here. Wouldn’t that send out the wrong message?

Oh that is going to get at least a caution any day of the week. But my point is not about this specific point. It sounds like he got what he deserves but (and I am really guessing a fair bit here) could have you managed him any differently right from the get go. And would that change have had a positive impact on the rest of players and the game? Even if the outcome had to be the same double sin bin, could that have been delivered a better way. I really don't know for sure but reading between the lines in your posts I am guessing they could have. Only you can answer those questions. You don't have anything to prove to any of us. It's for you to figure out what you did well and what you can improve on.

I never disagree with referees who get rid of idiots off the field. But I do give credit to those who can turn them in to sensible players for 90 minutes or at least keep them under control for 90 minute. This is not always possible but should not stop trying.

 

[Big Cat]

So I think this is an important discussion because managing dissent efficiently/effectively is second only to knowing/applying the LOTG
As, @Ben448844 indicated, there's more than one way to achieve this. Sometimes my flash/dash thing might be apt, equally Ben's approach of slowing things down can be the way to go. For example, when the culprit comes in for his comeuppance, it can be a good idea to let them speak first without interruption. An opportunity for them to get their opinion fully off their chest giving the ref equal chance to administer the card. Personally, I wouldn't be calling the captain in when going for a C2 sin bin, because that ship has already sailed by that point
I also value @one 's comments. Losing control of our emotion to let 'someone get under our skin', is akin to losing MC

Regardless, the aim of the C2 Sin Bin, is to manage dissent; and if we need to go for an immediate second C2, something has likely gone wrong because this is not the outcome that anyone wants. Whilst @Eddie had no choice but to deal with the 'disgrace' comment, I'm just indicating that I'd be giving myself a good kicking that it got to that. I'm not God's gift to refereeing btw... I only know how I'd feel by experiencing my own unwanted outcomes, even quite recently