Eventful end to the match!

[Eddie]

Yesterday’s match was going quite smoothly until around the 77th minute, after which I encountered a couple of firsts.

Away side were 2-0 up after an hour against the run of play. Match control was spot on, player behaviour was good, challenges were fair etc.

Offside calls are all on me for reference.

15 to go and it’s 2-2, Away team want OS for equaliser. Naturally, away team big mouth has plenty to say about it, I use stepped approach and issue last warning (his team mates are telling him to shut up). 2-3 mins later more OS calls where big mouth starts claiming I’m guessing over my decisions- C2 issued, as he’s walking off he calls me a disgrace, second C2 straight away.

In truth I think I messed up following that regarding the sin bin. I was aware big mouth wasn’t allowed back on to the field after x2 C2’s but couldn’t recall if his team was down to 10 as his second C2 was issued whilst he was effectively in the bin, or whether they could send on a replacement after 10 mins...I went with the latter- wrongly, I think! Not that anybody noticed mind.

2 mins later home team 13 shouts at me repeatedly over an OS- C2.

4 mins of normal time to go and a scramble results in away 8 sliding in to block a shot on the line, when the shot hits his arm and bounces away. Penalty. I pull 8 to the side to give him the good news and nobody can believe it’s a red card for denial of a goal by hand. Whilst I admitted I didn’t think it was intentional I told him it didn’t matter, now when I say nobody could believe it I had the home team players asking me not to send him off! Of course I took no notice but I knew from that point away we’re going to start feeling as though they’d been hard done by. Goal, 3-2.

89 mins I wave home 13 back on after his C2. Cue big mouth claiming he hasn’t been off for 10 mins, I take no notice and see out the game with 3 mins additional time, no more incidents.

Post-match I’m talking to away players in a calm, adult manner over the red for denial of a goal by hand. I explain I’ve got to apply the law etc. They ultimately accept it and were just looking for clarity as some thought the double-jeopardy applied.

Big mouth walks past and continues to bleat on about me ‘guessing’ on the OS calls, that I wasn’t consistent or fair, and that me apparently letting home 13 back on early after the C2 has been noted and will be reported! I’m not in the slightest bit worried by this mind, I know it’s going to impact my match rating but I know you have to take them with a pinch of salt anyway.

2 things I need clarity on

Should the away side have stayed at 10 men following the second C2 for big mouth?

Should big mouth have left the pitch area following the second C2? Him being around after he’d effectively being dismissed didn’t make life easier. His team mates were generally spot on, he was the only problem but it did seem as though he was getting his bench riled up.

Finally how do you manage players leaving the pitch area after a dismissal? Do you wait around until they’ve gone or just get on with the game?

 

[es1]

Should the away side have stayed at 10 men following the second C2 for big mouth?

Yeah this is right, unfortunately!

 

[Eddie]

Yeah this is right, unfortunately!

Cheers, as I said the clubs don’t seem to have a clue about how they’re supposed to work, so nobody picked up on the error thankfully.

 

[one]

Should the away side have stayed at 10 men following the second C2 for big mouth?

Yes

Should big mouth have left the pitch area following the second C2? Him being around after he’d effectively being dismissed didn’t make life easier. His team mates were generally spot on, he was the only problem but it did seem as though he was getting his bench riled up.

The law is not clear on this. Just that they take no further part. Your competition rules may have something around this. If not, they can stay in the tech area.

Finally how do you manage players leaving the pitch area after a dismissal? Do you wait around until they’ve gone or just get on with the game?

You have to wait until they leave the vicinity of the field of play. But use some common sense and apply this with your discretion and as you see fit.

 

[one]

4 mins of normal time to go and a scramble results in away 8 sliding in to block a shot on the line, when the shot hits his arm and bounces away. Penalty.

You have to be there but I may not agree with this depending on how it happened.
Law 12: " it is not an offence... When a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body"

Also if you didn't think it was intentional how is it a "deliberate handball"?. If you think it's an offence then saying you don't think it intentional is going to get you in trouble. The only exception is attacking handball creating a GSO or scoring a goal.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Yesterday’s match was going quite smoothly until around the 77th minute, after which I encountered a couple of firsts.

Away side were 2-0 up after an hour against the run of play. Match control was spot on, player behaviour was good, challenges were fair etc.

Offside calls are all on me for reference.

15 to go and it’s 2-2, Away team want OS for equaliser. Naturally, away team big mouth has plenty to say about it, I use stepped approach and issue last warning (his team mates are telling him to shut up). 2-3 mins later more OS calls where big mouth starts claiming I’m guessing over my decisions- C2 issued, as he’s walking off he calls me a disgrace, second C2 straight away.

In truth I think I messed up following that regarding the sin bin. I was aware big mouth wasn’t allowed back on to the field after x2 C2’s but couldn’t recall if his team was down to 10 as his second C2 was issued whilst he was effectively in the bin, or whether they could send on a replacement after 10 mins...I went with the latter- wrongly, I think! Not that anybody noticed mind.

2 mins later home team 13 shouts at me repeatedly over an OS- C2.

4 mins of normal time to go and a scramble results in away 8 sliding in to block a shot on the line, when the shot hits his arm and bounces away. Penalty. I pull 8 to the side to give him the good news and nobody can believe it’s a red card for denial of a goal by hand. Whilst I admitted I didn’t think it was intentional I told him it didn’t matter, now when I say nobody could believe it I had the home team players asking me not to send him off! Of course I took no notice but I knew from that point away we’re going to start feeling as though they’d been hard done by. Goal, 3-2.

89 mins I wave home 13 back on after his C2. Cue big mouth claiming he hasn’t been off for 10 mins, I take no notice and see out the game with 3 mins additional time, no more incidents.

Post-match I’m talking to away players in a calm, adult manner over the red for denial of a goal by hand. I explain I’ve got to apply the law etc. They ultimately accept it and were just looking for clarity as some thought the double-jeopardy applied.

Big mouth walks past and continues to bleat on about me ‘guessing’ on the OS calls, that I wasn’t consistent or fair, and that me apparently letting home 13 back on early after the C2 has been noted and will be reported! I’m not in the slightest bit worried by this mind, I know it’s going to impact my match rating but I know you have to take them with a pinch of salt anyway.

2 things I need clarity on

Should the away side have stayed at 10 men following the second C2 for big mouth?

Should big mouth have left the pitch area following the second C2? Him being around after he’d effectively being dismissed didn’t make life easier. His team mates were generally spot on, he was the only problem but it did seem as though he was getting his bench riled up.

Finally how do you manage players leaving the pitch area after a dismissal? Do you wait around until they’ve gone or just get on with the game?

The guidance on the IFAB website is useful, and most counties in England now issue Sin Bin guides (same size as a yellow card) for intstant reference during a game.
On this occasion, the situation should have been:
Offences during a temporary dismissal

• A temporarily dismissed player who commits a cautionable (YC) or sending-off (RC) offence during their temporary dismissal period will take no further part in the match and may not be replaced or substituted

 

[Eddie]

You have to be there but I may not agree with this depending on how it happened.
Law 12: "when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body"

I wish I’d recalled that at the time as I could’ve sold it no problem, however he was on his side with his left arm in front of his chest when it hit him, on that arm, so think the red was correct. Saying that it was never a deliberate attempt to handle it to stop a goal, so the red still seems harsh!

 

[Degnann]

You have to be there but I may not agree with this depending on how it happened.
Law 12: " it is not an offence... When a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body"

Also if you didn't think it was intentional how is it a "deliberate handball"?. If you think it's an offence then saying you don't think it intentional is going to get you in trouble. The only exception is attacking handball creating a GSO or scoring a goal.

I’d like to know where the defenders arm was when he slid.
if op has given it as a pen and a red then I’d take it the arm was no longer supporting him

edit: posted after op had stated were arm was

 

[Big Cat]

Yesterday’s match was going quite smoothly until around the 77th minute, after which I encountered a couple of firsts.

Away side were 2-0 up after an hour against the run of play. Match control was spot on, player behaviour was good, challenges were fair etc.

Offside calls are all on me for reference.

15 to go and it’s 2-2, Away team want OS for equaliser. Naturally, away team big mouth has plenty to say about it, I use stepped approach and issue last warning (his team mates are telling him to shut up). 2-3 mins later more OS calls where big mouth starts claiming I’m guessing over my decisions- C2 issued, as he’s walking off he calls me a disgrace, second C2 straight away.

In truth I think I messed up following that regarding the sin bin. I was aware big mouth wasn’t allowed back on to the field after x2 C2’s but couldn’t recall if his team was down to 10 as his second C2 was issued whilst he was effectively in the bin, or whether they could send on a replacement after 10 mins...I went with the latter- wrongly, I think! Not that anybody noticed mind.

2 mins later home team 13 shouts at me repeatedly over an OS- C2.

4 mins of normal time to go and a scramble results in away 8 sliding in to block a shot on the line, when the shot hits his arm and bounces away. Penalty. I pull 8 to the side to give him the good news and nobody can believe it’s a red card for denial of a goal by hand. Whilst I admitted I didn’t think it was intentional I told him it didn’t matter, now when I say nobody could believe it I had the home team players asking me not to send him off! Of course I took no notice but I knew from that point away we’re going to start feeling as though they’d been hard done by. Goal, 3-2.

89 mins I wave home 13 back on after his C2. Cue big mouth claiming he hasn’t been off for 10 mins, I take no notice and see out the game with 3 mins additional time, no more incidents.

Post-match I’m talking to away players in a calm, adult manner over the red for denial of a goal by hand. I explain I’ve got to apply the law etc. They ultimately accept it and were just looking for clarity as some thought the double-jeopardy applied.

Big mouth walks past and continues to bleat on about me ‘guessing’ on the OS calls, that I wasn’t consistent or fair, and that me apparently letting home 13 back on early after the C2 has been noted and will be reported! I’m not in the slightest bit worried by this mind, I know it’s going to impact my match rating but I know you have to take them with a pinch of salt anyway.

2 things I need clarity on

Should the away side have stayed at 10 men following the second C2 for big mouth?

Should big mouth have left the pitch area following the second C2? Him being around after he’d effectively being dismissed didn’t make life easier. His team mates were generally spot on, he was the only problem but it did seem as though he was getting his bench riled up.

Finally how do you manage players leaving the pitch area after a dismissal? Do you wait around until they’ve gone or just get on with the game?

Eddie, few thoughts from me
i. Your difficult experience sounds mostly down to not knowing the Laws. Not only do you need to know what to do in these situations, the players will sense if there's any doubt in your mind
ii. Consider whether you could've classed the two instances of dissent as a continuation of one discretion. Just something to think about, but I wouldn't be happy with two C2s in quick succession because it indicates that something has probably gone wrong. Be efficient with the first C2, then put some distance between you and the culprit. Adopt a bit of selective hearing to give the player the 10 minutes they need to consider their behaviour
React to OFFINABUS however
iii. Both teams disputing the PK is just an example of how both teams will prey on you when they sense 'ref blood'
iv. Forget about Match Ratings. Thinking about these marks will cause the marks to go South
v. Identify the players at an early stage who may give you problems. You instinctively knew that there was one problem player. That player stands between you and a successful game. Once dismissed, they must leave the vicinity. By that, I mean they can't have ANY further influence on the game. Otherwise, they're in charge of the game, not you
All sounds easy via a keyboard, but these are the things I'd be targeting (and sometimes falling short of)

 

[Ben448844]

Cheers, as I said the clubs don’t seem to have a clue about how they’re supposed to work, so nobody picked up on the error thankfully.

My County issued sin bin cards following the sin bin training at the start of last year. May be worth looking online for these. They essentially list all C2 eventualities on one side of the card. IE, you could look at it and see 2 x C2s = cannot continue and cannot be replaced with a sub. I've never needed to look at it but I like that its there in case I ever had a brain fart. Particularly useful if you've never had to issue many dissent C2s and you find yourself issuing dissent C2s alongside a yellow/yellows for other offences.

 

[Ben448844]

My County issued sin bin cards following the sin bin training at the start of last year. May be worth looking online for these. They essentially list all C2 eventualities on one side of the card. IE, you could look at it and see 2 x C2s = cannot continue and cannot be replaced with a sub. I've never needed to look at it but I like that its there in case I ever had a brain fart. Particularly useful if you've never had to issue many dissent C2s and you find yourself issuing dissent C2s alongside a yellow/yellows for other offences.

Here it is on A&H. Thinking about it I may have bought it from there rather than had it issued, I really can't remember. Anyway, link below.

Account Suspended

 

[Big Cat]

2 x C2s = cannot continue and cannot be replaced with a sub

Ben,
Sin Bin + Sin Bin = unable to re-join, but can be subbed at end of 2nd 10 minute spell
(because the punishment has been served by spending 20 mins off and an effective dismissal would be additive and unfair)

 

[Ben448844]

Ben,
Sin Bin + Sin Bin = unable to re-join, but can be subbed at end of 2nd 10 minute spell
(because the punishment has been served by spending 20 mins off and an effective dismissal would be additive and unfair)

Shouldve been yellow + sin bin + sin bin. Serves me right for trying to be a clever so and so! Thankfully I have an idiots guide on the back of my yellow card

Incidentally, I've never had to issue 2 dissent yellows yet. Has anyone? Not in quick succession, just issuing a second dissent yellow after the player returned from his first sin bin period?

 

[santa sangria]

“...must leave the vicinity of the field of play and the technical area”..,

Competition rules might have specifics...

But, especially after a red card for dissent, OFFINABUS or VC you want the player where they cannot interact anymore.

Common sense at grassroots means you might restart while they get their bag, but if they linger, pause at the next stoppage and make sure they go away!

This is one of those times - especially if it’s a Big Mouth - where you have to take a stand IMHO. I’ve had it twice where it’s gone as far as threatening the coach with abandonment if the RC player doesn’t leave. Rare but be prepared!

 

[one]

Ben,
Sin Bin + Sin Bin = unable to re-join, but can be subbed at end of 2nd 10 minute spell
(because the punishment has been served by spending 20 mins off and an effective dismissal would be additive and unfair)

In the OP case, the second dissent was during the TD so he can not be replaced. (Because him and the team have not learnt from the punishment and a further punishment of a effective dismissal applies) But this like many other things in law that are not clear can be disputed.

But, especially after a red card for dissent, OFFINABUS or VC you want the player where they cannot interact anymore.

Do you issue a red card after two sin-bins + another yellow? Or a sin bin and a actionable offence while in the bin?

 

[Gamespoiler]

I’ve had a player booked for showing aggressive attitude, then as I walked away he was shouting comments at me that everyone could hear so I couldn’t ignore, hence sinbin. Then as he goes to sin bin, he claps me on the way, so another yc offence whilst temporarily dismissed so he couldn’t return and couldn’t be substituted. I did show a red which was probably wrong but felt I had to so all could see he couldn’t return

 

[GraemeS]

Yeah, one of the least-logic aspect of the sin-bin protocols for me. Everyone and their dog knows what a red card means - that player can no longer participate and his team now play the rest of the game a man short. In the situations described by @Eddie , @Gamespoiler and others above, it would make so much more sense for the protocols to require a red card at that point (and for any other details such as where the player can go, to match up with what we're all used to from a red card)

As it is, no-one quite knows what's happened and you get a complex mess of results.

 

[JamesL]

Yeah, one of the least-logic aspect of the sin-bin protocols for me. Everyone and their dog knows what a red card means - that player can no longer participate and his team now play the rest of the game a man short. In the situations described by @Eddie , @Gamespoiler and others above, it would make so much more sense for the protocols to require a red card at that point (and for any other details such as where the player can go, to match up with what we're all used to from a red card)

As it is, no-one quite knows what's happened and you get a complex mess of results.

Summed up a reply I had started but not sent. Must have got distracted on something else.
It is a real nuisance that the ifab saw fit to introduce this concept of 'takes no further part in the match' without really clarifying what this means (beyond its obvious meaning). Is the player sent off. I guess not given the difference in wording and administration.
Does the player have to leave the immediate vicinity of the pitch.. I find this bit difficult. You have a player that has proven a nuisance be it through multiple dissent and/or other offence is allowed to remain. What happens if whilst he is stood in the temporary dismissal area (I acn onyl assume this is where he should remain) he commits another cautionable offence? Are we really, potentially, giving this person a 4th yellow card before then red and reporting it as receiving two cautions in a match.
The whole situation could be fixed by 1) clearly defining 'takes no further part in the match'. And
2) another colour for temporary dismissals.
3) make takes no further part in match come in line with a send off

 

[Big Cat]

Shouldve been yellow + sin bin + sin bin. Serves me right for trying to be a clever so and so! Thankfully I have an idiots guide on the back of my yellow card

Incidentally, I've never had to issue 2 dissent yellows yet. Has anyone? Not in quick succession, just issuing a second dissent yellow after the player returned from his first sin bin period?

No worries. Sin Bins can help us with Match Control and I'm happy enough that they brought them in. I've never done it, but I'm fairly certain two Sin Bins in quick succession would work against us, for reasons I can't put into words. My method WRT C2 Sin Bin, is a 'flash and dash', negating the player's opportunity to have a second bite (or to be far enough away to adopt selective hearing). I think this is quite an important topic because it's sure to be a frequent occurrence

 

[Martiju]

Eddie, few thoughts from me
i. Your difficult experience sounds mostly down to not knowing the Laws. Not only do you need to know what to do in these situations, the players will sense if there's any doubt in your mind
ii. Consider whether you could've classed the two instances of dissent as a continuation of one discretion. Just something to think about, but I wouldn't be happy with two C2s in quick succession because it indicates that something has probably gone wrong. Be efficient with the first C2, then put some distance between you and the culprit. Adopt a bit of selective hearing to give the player the 10 minutes they need to consider their behaviour
React to OFFINABUS however
iii. Both teams disputing the PK is just an example of how both teams will prey on you when they sense 'ref blood'

If I was taking learning points from the game, I'd concentrate on these.

It might be useful too to look again at the now rather complex law on handball. In my experience most handball will still be accidental and not penalised (despite VAR!) unless the arm is in an unnatural position or it leads immediately to a goal. From your description of someone throwing themselves in front of the ball - especially as you suggest it would go on to hit their body if the arm wasn't there (arms have to go somewhere) - that's probably not likely to meet the criteria.

You are right though that once you've given it it's going to be DOGSO-H as of course the 'triple jeopardy' change only comes into effect for genuine attempts to play the ball (triple because of the suspension too).

My best mentor said to me (and BigCat implies this too, I think) - make your decision, state it clearly to those who need to hear it, then move on to your new position. Don't get involved in arguments about even the KMIs any longer than at all necessary. If people follow you to impress their opinions, it's then much easier to do the stepped approach and remove them.