A&H

Euro 2020 final

Big Cat,

You've pointed out everything that i have been talking to my friends about.
Point 1 is definitely a G Jones negative tactic, setup for 0-0, he's renowned for not playing with 'true' centre forwards.
Point 2- why would you let a couple of kids take the kicks when they aren't warmed up to the pace of the game and why didn't the more senior players have the balls to step forward.
Point 3 - i thought the ref was fairly average and missed the red for the tackle on Grealish.
Point 4 - no idea how you can stamp out online trolls.

Gareth has been 'groomed' by the FA since he hung up his boots and is just a yes man for them. We need someone who is more of a maverick and isn't afraid to speak his mind like Venables or even Allardyce. Me personally I think Dyche would be brilliant but a gamble the FA wouldn't want to take.
 
The Referee Store
Very rare a game of football gets under my skin these days, but this one achieved it

1) Nobody in the media seems to realize who was responsible for this starting line-up. Any Luton Town or Newcastle Utd supporter would recognize the negative formation a mile off however. It works OK for us because we're crap in comparison to our opposition, but England had fortunes of exciting attacking talent on the bench, the likes of which I don't normally get the opportunity to support. I feel for players like Harry Kane (who looked really sharp when he infrequently managed to get into the oppo half). They were given an impossible task
2) It's asking an awful lot of any player to take a KMTPK in a Major Final without having 10 or 15 minutes to get their eye in and burn off some nervous energy. Let alone a kid or players who've hardly kicked a ball in the tournament. Again, I feel sorry for the players. Absolutely stupid tactic
3) How can anyone say Kuipers had a good game when he's missed a KMI?
OK, I could forgive the R on the FOP, but replays at normal speed were binary. Grealish had his safety endangered by an unacceptable challenge
VAR paralysed again when it comes to questioning the view of a superior on-field R in big games at big moments
4) So we're back to where we started with on-line racism and abuse. What's the answer? If we have 60 million fans, how do we stop a tiny fraction venting their toxic, prejudiced, vile views in a plethora of global platforms? Shut the platforms down? Obviously not. So what? Only option is to legislate and overwhelm the Magistrates with criminal charges. But even then, this nonsense will still filter to the Public Domain

Very depressing. Gareth is the 'blue-eyed-boy' with the Media, for many good reasons. But the team only beat a below-par Garman side and a semi-resilient Danish team. The Group Stage was lame and Ukraine were awful. Not that much to get excited about when we compare Italy's path to the trophy. I thought they humiliated us for long periods last night, in our back yard. That's my synopsis. Enjoy


just on point 2, bear in mind Van Gaal brought on a gk with one min to go, only for the pks. Luck, skill or genius, it worked.

on the kickers, we forever hear about, tired legs and so on, so fresh legs is the polar opposite. Never having been stepping up in front of 25 million folk, its impossible to say whether being involved in the match for half an hour helps at the pens, or stepping up fresh as a daisy.
Given its a final and especially given Englands notoriious penalty kick history, you would like to imagine this was all accounted for and rehearsed

surely from squad day one the players are told you are pen taker 1, 4, 8, 12, etc
 
just on point 2, bear in mind Van Gaal brought on a gk with one min to go, only for the pks. Luck, skill or genius, it worked.

on the kickers, we forever hear about, tired legs and so on, so fresh legs is the polar opposite. Never having been stepping up in front of 25 million folk, its impossible to say whether being involved in the match for half an hour helps at the pens, or stepping up fresh as a daisy.
Given its a final and especially given Englands notoriious penalty kick history, you would like to imagine this was all accounted for and rehearsed

surely from squad day one the players are told you are pen taker 1, 4, 8, 12, etc
Exactly correct at the end there - had Sterling not won the penalty in ET of the SF, I think we would have seen the same then. 105 mins into the match and only 3 of 6 possible subs had been used - if that had gone the distance, we would have seen a flurry of penalty-taking subs brought on then too.
 
Big Cat,

You've pointed out everything that i have been talking to my friends about.
Point 1 is definitely a G Jones negative tactic, setup for 0-0, he's renowned for not playing with 'true' centre forwards.
Point 2- why would you let a couple of kids take the kicks when they aren't warmed up to the pace of the game and why didn't the more senior players have the balls to step forward.
Point 3 - i thought the ref was fairly average and missed the red for the tackle on Grealish.
Point 4 - no idea how you can stamp out online trolls.

Gareth has been 'groomed' by the FA since he hung up his boots and is just a yes man for them. We need someone who is more of a maverick and isn't afraid to speak his mind like Venables or even Allardyce. Me personally I think Dyche would be brilliant but a gamble the FA wouldn't want to take.
There's no chance the 'darling of the BBC/FA' will be going anywhere. And there's lots of very sound reasons for that, off the field
Gareth doesn't take risks, so to bring in a coach as negative as Jones proved to be a lamentable appointment. I can't emphasize enough, I would also focus on not getting beat as a coach, before considering how to win games, but last night was off the scale given what was sat on the bench. Even when he did reach out for a saviour, Saka was repeatedly the preferred and least exciting option IMO

The Jones influence on the team really got to me... to the point that I didn't sleep too well. I can't believe it bothered me that much! I get that formation served up to me every week FGS, the difference being that the Mags have to play that system to avoid getting humped. Staggering, the wealth of talent England fans were robbed of throughout the tournament. An unthinkably easy path to the final masked that to everyone
 
Very depressing. Gareth is the 'blue-eyed-boy' with the Media, for many good reasons. But the team only beat a below-par Garman side and a semi-resilient Danish team. The Group Stage was lame and Ukraine were awful. Not that much to get excited about when we compare Italy's path to the trophy. I thought they humiliated us for long periods last night, in our back yard. That's my synopsis. Enjoy

Pretty much on the money.

I liken England's passage to the final with our similar passage to the 2018 World Cup S/Final whereby we actually managed to do no more than was needed against pretty tame opposition. Don't get me wrong, we've improved as a team since 2018 but whether or not we'll ever reach another tournament final is open to debate - certainly with Southgate at the helm. :)
 
From a tactical perspective, one of the telling points was that whilst we were convincingly beaten, many of the England players performed really well. Pickford, Maguire, Rice, Phillips, Kane, Shaw. So that means their fate was sealed, because they couldn't have done much more with that setup. I know we have hindsight on our side, but there was enough foresight by half time (or certainly soon after the break) that we were in big trouble
The Jones factor was an immovable barrier, even when the writing was on the wall.
 
Also, interesting that the majority watched BBC, to a massive ratio of four-to-one
Did Jonathan Pearce commentate on ITV? Enough said
I thought it was disappointing that the girls were demoted to pitch-side and I thought it quite odd that Micah was missing. Ferdinand is a far inferior alternative IMO. As for Shearer, dear me
I understand Roy Keane was tickled by the defeat on tother side
 
Point 2- why would you let a couple of kids take the kicks when they aren't warmed up to the pace of the game and why didn't the more senior players have the balls to step forward.
Both Italians who missed their penalties are senior players who take penalties for their clubs and had ‘warmed to the game’ so what’s their excuse? Penalties are luck of the draw

None of our team have ever played in an international final so it’s literally impossible for them to replicate the pressures they were under last night and just because you’re a ‘senior’ doesn’t mean you’re a good penalty taker. Henderson is a prime example of that. Southgate went with the best penalty takers from training, that’s all he can do. If we score, he’s a genius but they were saved they are a ‘couple of kids’ but we ignore that they were up against a 21 year old goalkeeper
 
Both Italians who missed their penalties are senior players who take penalties for their clubs and had ‘warmed to the game’ so what’s their excuse? Penalties are luck of the draw

None of our team have ever played in an international final so it’s literally impossible for them to replicate the pressures they were under last night and just because you’re a ‘senior’ doesn’t mean you’re a good penalty taker. Henderson is a prime example of that. Southgate went with the best penalty takers from training, that’s all he can do. If we score, he’s a genius but they were saved they are a ‘couple of kids’ but we ignore that they were up against a 21 year old goalkeeper

Slight correction - none of our players have played in a SENIOR international final. A number of the squad have been part of the successful U17, U19 and U20 England sides that have won European and World Cups for their age group.
 
All penalties are fine if they go in. But just look at Maguires one. He smashed his home, no stupid run up.
Rashford and Sancho brought on to take a penalty 30 seconds before the end. No momentum, no adrenaline. They may "fitter", fresher, but its penalties.
Why not Calvert-Lewin?

I'll never understand all of this tricky run-up stuff. I guess keepers and backroom staffs have so much video that they know all of the "tells" for a particular player - particularly if they take a lot of penalties. But it still seems too complicated for me.

Pick a corner, hit it with pace, and put it on frame. If the keeper makes a save, tip your hat and get 'em next time. Maguire's penalty fit that to a T. So did Christian Pulisic's penalty in the CONCACAF Nations League final against Mexico. He took a two-step runup and put the ball into the upper 90 postage stamp. Memo Ochoa (Mexico's keeper) guessed right, but he still wasn't ever coming close to that ball. For those interested in the visual, I'm hoping this video will be available across the pond.
 
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Slight correction - none of our players have played in a SENIOR international final. A number of the squad have been part of the successful U17, U19 and U20 England sides that have won European and World Cups for their age group.
Fair point, though the point still stands about the pressure as this scenario is still alien
 
Penalties are a lottery at the best of times. We have a very young squad so it was an inevitability that youngsters would have to take penalties. Southgate said the order was based on practicing in training, but there is a big difference between a non-pressure kick against a small keeper in Pickford versus a Euros final against a 6'5" giant who is a penalty saving expert.

Southgate is cautious, that caution has led us to a WC semi-final followed by a Euros final. I'd rather that than losing to Iceland or drawing against Tunisia or other such lowly countries. And people forget we've got to the final with an incredibly young and inexperienced squad.

As much as it was sh!thousery of the highest level, I don't think there is any justification for sending off Chiellini, it is just SPA. Can't be SFP as not a challenge for the ball, and it would be a massive push to say it was in any way violent. For Jorginho I think it looked worse because of the bounce off the ball, don't think red would have been wrong but it would have been harsh and wasn't necessary.
 
There's no chance the 'darling of the BBC/FA' will be going anywhere. And there's lots of very sound reasons for that, off the field
Gareth doesn't take risks, so to bring in a coach as negative as Jones proved to be a lamentable appointment. I can't emphasize enough, I would also focus on not getting beat as a coach, before considering how to win games, but last night was off the scale given what was sat on the bench. Even when he did reach out for a saviour, Saka was repeatedly the preferred and least exciting option IMO

The Jones influence on the team really got to me... to the point that I didn't sleep too well. I can't believe it bothered me that much! I get that formation served up to me every week FGS, the difference being that the Mags have to play that system to avoid getting humped. Staggering, the wealth of talent England fans were robbed of throughout the tournament. An unthinkably easy path to the final masked that to everyone

Its not of course England's fault or even problem if the draw runs in their favour but even if you get an "easy" draw - a phase I hate because your playing against fellow professional footballers, you still have to do the job, just ask Roy Hodgson and he knows what the consequences are if you lose against an "easy" opponant.

We do have to face facts though, England are one of those teams that can compete against the major countries and can pull a result out of the bag but its a 1 out of 3 type of ratio of them winning against the better countries. Also England's approach of trying to get a positive result has always been defensive and that's OK to an extent but you got to show you do have the quality to control a game and dominate and England for the last 10 years have very rarely shown that against top opposition especially away from home. And that's the dissapointing thing for me, England played the game as it was an away tie and only in brief moments been able try and gain some control and as people said, when you got the likes of Foden, Sancho and even Rashford on the bench, not using them is just bizzare.

Also going back to the Jorginho incident, still maintain a yellow was the right decision, if the ball was not so slippery then his studs would not of caught Grealish in that way. It was a poor foul but as I said, the tackle/lunge itself was not dangerous imo.
 
So what exactly do you think he is saying yes to? Do you have any examples of things he has agreed to that you think he shouldn't?
Tbf, the FA created a vision of how to make use more successful as a nation at these tournaments.
If they had someone in, like a Capello, who did it their way it would hold us back.
They needed someone who shared that vision, and who knew and worked with the young talent in the under x age groups (much what was seen with the great Spanish and German teams dominating those age groups, translating into senior success). and Gareth fits that mould.
Doesn't make him a yes man at all. It makes him the right man for the job.

Although I still think his tactics were a bit iffy this time round.
 
Holding offences aren't judged on CRUEF criteria it's not on the list of offences where the referee considers them.
So it leaves safety endangerment and brutality. Don't see it myself. Cynical yes. Deliberately violent... I suppose. Opinion of ref but I dont see a shirt pull as a violent act.

More than a shirt pull when it’s around the neck for a long duration and takes the full weight and force.

This kind of neck shirt lynching is an ejection in rugby for a reason. If we saw this “regularly” in football it would be a red card. I think it’s only a yellow because it is so unusual.

If this happened in a u15 game what would you do?
 
More than a shirt pull when it’s around the neck for a long duration and takes the full weight and force.

This kind of neck shirt lynching is an ejection in rugby for a reason. If we saw this “regularly” in football it would be a red card. I think it’s only a yellow because it is so unusual.

If this happened in a u15 game what would you do?
I'd apply the Laws of the Game.

Judgement call as to whether it's SFP or not. My at the time gut call was yellow and I'd probably apply that - although no two offences are ever the same.
 
More than a shirt pull when it’s around the neck for a long duration and takes the full weight and force.

This kind of neck shirt lynching is an ejection in rugby for a reason. If we saw this “regularly” in football it would be a red card. I think it’s only a yellow because it is so unusual.

If this happened in a u15 game what would you do?
Yellow card.
It's a stop promising attack
I agree with all of your comments. I expect at some point a law change/modification to support a red card here.
I think I asked the question about comparison to rugby.
Just doesn't tick the boxes for me for a. Red cad offence. I think you would have a more difficult remainder of a game if you did than if you didn't send off
 
Yellow card.
It's a stop promising attack
I agree with all of your comments. I expect at some point a law change/modification to support a red card here.
I think I asked the question about comparison to rugby.
Just doesn't tick the boxes for me for a. Red cad offence. I think you would have a more difficult remainder of a game if you did than if you didn't send off

Also I think you need to differentiate between a "grab and a hold" where the players momentum takes him backwards like he's reached the end of a piece of elastic and a "grab and a yank" where the offender grabs and then forcefully pulls back.

I'd like to see this sort of offence be considered a Red Card as other sports have seen the impact they can have, but as the laws are written, I don't see how you can send off for it.

I do applaud Chiellini for it though, really quick thinking using all of his experience to buy a yellow card.
 
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