A&H

Euro 2020 final

JamesL said:
Yellow card.
It's a stop promising attack
I agree with all of your comments. I expect at some point a law change/modification to support a red card here.
I think I asked the question about comparison to rugby.
Just doesn't tick the boxes for me for a. Red cad offence. I think you would have a more difficult remainder of a game if you did than if you didn't send off
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I think this is an example of what went wrong with DOGSO as they tried to idiot proof it by making it as black-and-white as possible. I'd like more judgment for referees to identify cynical, dangerous non-football fouls like this as send offs--which was more how it started.

(And I do think it is violent enough that a send off could be justified under the current laws. Never going to happen in a professional competition, but at some levels I think it is the right call and necessary to prevent retaliation.)
 
The Referee Store
Re: The shirt pull

You have to love when a major 15 yard penalty in the NFL is only a yellow in football!
 
JamesL said:
Yellow card.
It's a stop promising attack
I agree with all of your comments. I expect at some point a law change/modification to support a red card here.
I think I asked the question about comparison to rugby.
Just doesn't tick the boxes for me for a. Red cad offence. I think you would have a more difficult remainder of a game if you did than if you didn't send off
Click to expand...
I agree.

To be honest, we're heading back to the weeds of what was discussed on here a couple of weeks ago when the Welsh boy got sent off for a cynical foul that seemed to tick either or none of the boxes for SFP or VC for some. The ref at the time viewed it in line with expected practice and though controversial, he was able to pull out the red with confidence.

Chiellini's foul was a shirt pull, the visual effect of which was exacerbated by Saka's momentum. It looks bad in slo-mo (as do they all) but the match didn't "expect" a red at that moment and so I doubt Bjorn would have even considered it. Were it an "expected" course of action, then presumably VAR would have reviewed it and got involved (or not). The right decision was made IMO and Bjorn got to bow out without severely blotting his copybook. :)
 
Justylove said:
I'd apply the Laws of the Game.

Judgement call as to whether it's SFP or not. My at the time gut call was yellow and I'd probably apply that - although no two offences are ever the same.
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It cant be SFP , that occurs when challenging for the ball.
VC is your consideration.
 
socal lurker said:
I think this is an example of what went wrong with DOGSO as they tried to idiot proof it by making it as black-and-white as possible. I'd like more judgment for referees to identify cynical, dangerous non-football fouls like this as send offs--which was more how it started.

(And I do think it is violent enough that a send off could be justified under the current laws. Never going to happen in a professional competition, but at some levels I think it is the right call and necessary to prevent retaliation.)
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I think putting DOGSO into the mix is guaranteed to be confusing. Are we arguing it should be a red card because it was forceful, or because it was cynical and designed to stop a goal?

It "feels" red because of the conflation of the two - Chiellini used a yellow-card level of force to commit a yellow-card level of tactical foul. I get why people logically feel that should stack to a red card, but the simultaneous offences clause specifically exists to stop that stacking - you can ONLY punish the most serious offence.

I'd argue exactly the same regarding the Wales red btw - I don't buy any of the argument about the definition of excessive force changing just because the ball isn't quite in reach. A forceful trip is a yellow card, SPA is a yellow card, if they both happen at once then tough, the laws explicitly state that means yellow card.
 
Anubis said:
It cant be SFP , that occurs when challenging for the ball.
VC is your consideration.
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Ball in not in playing distance of the defender, but he's offended against the player in possession of the ball.

Either way I'm not showing a red card, for ANY of the offences listed as worthy of a send off (unless player is already on a yellow).

It's a yellow card.
 
Justylove said:
Ball in not in playing distance of the defender, but he's offended against the player in possession of the ball.

Either way I'm not showing a red card, for ANY of the offences listed as worthy of a send off (unless player is already on a yellow).

It's a yellow card.
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It can only be a yellow card. Despite us internally wishing it could be red.

he has indeed offended against the player in possession, that though does not make it, a challenge for the ball, which to meet SFP criteria, it has to be.

main thing is, as you rightly say, its yellow. I was only trying to point out it cannot be SFP, it could be VC, however, its not.
 
GraemeS said:
I think putting DOGSO into the mix is guaranteed to be confusing. Are we arguing it should be a red card because it was forceful, or because it was cynical and designed to stop a goal?
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I'm not arguing, under current Laws, that it is a red at that level. While it could, ITOOTR, qualify as violent conduct with the pull at the neck of the shirt and follow through to send him violently to the ground, that is not a call that has any chance of being made or supported by the powers that be in a Euoro final.

I do think this play should be a send off--I would like to see the Law factor the nastiness of a foul into the yellow/red distinction between SPA and DOGSO. (But I agree that DOGSO of today does not remotely support it. Any possible send off here would have to be for VC.)
 
socal lurker said:
I think this is an example of what went wrong with DOGSO as they tried to idiot proof it by making it as black-and-white as possible. I'd like more judgment for referees to identify cynical, dangerous non-football fouls like this as send offs--which was more how it started.

(And I do think it is violent enough that a send off could be justified under the current laws. Never going to happen in a professional competition, but at some levels I think it is the right call and necessary to prevent retaliation.)
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In my games, the Chellini play is a send-off. I played American football, and I understand how dangerous that type of play can be. Not only can you have a serious neck injury, but the unexpected nature of the pull can also put the other person in a position where a leg is planted and can twist, causing a leg injury. I've seen instances in American football where a tackle of this nature actually causes a major knee or lower leg injury because of the unexpected force.

I agree that making things more technical/objective tends to hinder sendoffs. A play like this, particularly at grassroots level, just feels like a send-off. It's intentional, cynical, and can cause injury in the right situation.
 
RefIADad said:
In my games, the Chellini play is a send-off. I played American football, and I understand how dangerous that type of play can be. Not only can you have a serious neck injury, but the unexpected nature of the pull can also put the other person in a position where a leg is planted and can twist, causing a leg injury. I've seen instances in American football where a tackle of this nature actually causes a major knee or lower leg injury because of the unexpected force.

I agree that making things more technical/objective tends to hinder sendoffs. A play like this, particularly at grassroots level, just feels like a send-off. It's intentional, cynical, and can cause injury in the right situation.
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This is prime where football officiating goes wrong, and, causes inconsistency issues.
As referee, we do not get to adminster our own form of justice, there is a reason the lotg book is global, its so in whatever country, the laws can be applied the same across the board ( or meant to be)
So in your game you ( wrongly) go red because despite the lotg, you feel a red is correct, the next week I ( rightly) go yellow, and all hell breaks loose.
Ref, AR and VAR between them correctly came to a yellow card, even, 9 out of 10 posts on here say yellow
Nobody needs to fully agree with the call, but as referees we do need to accept a yc is correct here.
You cannot possibly submit a misconduct report containing references to a different sport, so you should exclude that mindset when judging your decisions on a football pitch.
The lotg contain reference to what can be modified to suit the level you are officiating at. Your own definition of vc is not listed there
 
Anubis said:
This is prime where football officiating goes wrong, and, causes inconsistency issues.
As referee, we do not get to adminster our own form of justice, there is a reason the lotg book is global, its so in whatever country, the laws can be applied the same across the board ( or meant to be)
So in your game you ( wrongly) go red because despite the lotg, you feel a red is correct, the next week I ( rightly) go yellow, and all hell breaks loose.
Ref, AR and VAR between them correctly came to a yellow card, even, 9 out of 10 posts on here say yellow
Nobody needs to fully agree with the call, but as referees we do need to accept a yc is correct here.
You cannot possibly submit a misconduct report containing references to a different sport, so you should exclude that mindset when judging your decisions on a football pitch.
The lotg contain reference to what can be modified to suit the level you are officiating at. Your own definition of vc is not listed there
Click to expand...
There's inconsistency across the game. I've seen straight reds in the Premier league for tackles similar to Jorginho's on Grealish, as even if they get the ball, they led with their studs showing.

My initial reaction on the Chiellini incident was "Red" as it seemed such a violent way of bringing him to the ground, but I take your point, it may not have been in line with the current LOTG.
 
There will always be inconsistency, because of law 5, in the opinion of the referee.
And the laws openly say they cannot legislate for every specific scenario so the referee makes the decision based on framework and what football expects.
So, we all have put opinion on this action. We all have different levels of what we consider violent, or brutal and we all have a bar for what we consider as excessive force.
 
www.bbc.co.uk

Ros Atkins on... the trouble at Wembley

Ros Atkins looks at how crowd problems at Wembley played out from Sunday morning until after the final of Euro 2020.
www.bbc.co.uk
An indication that nothing in terms of culture has changed since Hillsborough
This is really quite a worrying report
 
I'm with those saying yellow, for the reasons given by others. But would any of those of us going yellow consider red for VC in the context of a match where we have flicked two or three players already for VC and had abundant cautions for prattish challenges?

Could this be an example of where the threshold for VC changes due to the temperature of the match?
 
Redster said:
I'm with those saying yellow, for the reasons given by others. But would any of those of us going yellow consider red for VC in the context of a match where we have flicked two or three players already for VC and had abundant cautions for prattish challenges?

Could this be an example of where the threshold for VC changes due to the temperature of the match?
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Consider also the Sterling penalty, if thats given at City v Palace at 5-0 in the laat min, nobody cares less and you be doing well to see it even replayed in the analysis.
Shearer would give a passing ' soft penalty' comment and nothing more.
 
Anubis said:
This is prime where football officiating goes wrong, and, causes inconsistency issues.
As referee, we do not get to adminster our own form of justice, there is a reason the lotg book is global, its so in whatever country, the laws can be applied the same across the board ( or meant to be)
So in your game you ( wrongly) go red because despite the lotg, you feel a red is correct, the next week I ( rightly) go yellow, and all hell breaks loose.
Ref, AR and VAR between them correctly came to a yellow card, even, 9 out of 10 posts on here say yellow
Nobody needs to fully agree with the call, but as referees we do need to accept a yc is correct here.
You cannot possibly submit a misconduct report containing references to a different sport, so you should exclude that mindset when judging your decisions on a football pitch.
The lotg contain reference to what can be modified to suit the level you are officiating at. Your own definition of vc is not listed there
Click to expand...

We have "in the opinion of the referee" for a reason, and the level of game has an impact on that. Sure, this play is probably a caution in a major international final. But I don't referee major international finals. I referee youth, college, and low-level amateur adult matches. This type of foul endangers safety at that level.

If you think we should be calling our grassroots games at the same thresholds as what we are watching in the Euro final or the Premier League, that's up to you. But good luck with the mass confrontations and major dissent that will surely follow.
 
RefIADad said:
We have "in the opinion of the referee" for a reason, and the level of game has an impact on that. Sure, this play is probably a caution in a major international final. But I don't referee major international finals. I referee youth, college, and low-level amateur adult matches. This type of foul endangers safety at that level.

If you think we should be calling our grassroots games at the same thresholds as what we are watching in the Euro final or the Premier League, that's up to you. But good luck with the mass confrontations and major dissent that will surely follow.
Click to expand...
But that's how players expect the game to be refereed because that's how they learnt the rules by watching the tele 🤣
 
RefIADad said:
We have "in the opinion of the referee" for a reason, and the level of game has an impact on that. Sure, this play is probably a caution in a major international final. But I don't referee major international finals. I referee youth, college, and low-level amateur adult matches. This type of foul endangers safety at that level.

If you think we should be calling our grassroots games at the same thresholds as what we are watching in the Euro final or the Premier League, that's up to you. But good luck with the mass confrontations and major dissent that will surely follow.
Click to expand...

With respect clearly if you have Sundays incident this weekend in your game, its you who faces dissent etc when you go red....
I go yellow, I follow both the lotg, and, the ' football expects' train of thought.
Football expects if the globe sees Europe's top ref go yellow, then it follows suit pleb me must go yellow too...

I wish it was a red, I would like to give a red but the pulling of the jersey is not an act of brutality
 
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