I think they can be mutually exclusive and this is a challenge that falls into that category
if you leave the ground with both feet, you are halfway to red,
Making no contact with the ball with either of the feet seals it
Clearly the ref team last night are red, am red, and as ever, if someone else in their game opts yellow, or even no card, thats the beauty ( or horror!) of refereeing
i dont think contacting the ball or not has any consideration in this tbh and shouldnt be part of the decision making process
if you consider it an SFP tackle then the ball is irrelevant
scroll up, where I respectfully tried to explain top flight referee thought process.
again, this coaching may or may not be different in different regions/abilities/level of referee
airbourne, two feet off ground, out of control. ( by being airbourne, you are out of control unless you are Clark Kent or Magneto) and being out of control you are endangering the opponent. Any challenge which endangers ( not, does it actuallly cause harm to, but, endangers) You are nearly red
Not making contact with the ball whilst doing the above, red.
scroll up, where I respectfully tried to explain top flight referee thought process.
Correct.if you leave the ground with both feet, you are halfway to red
Wrong.Making no contact with the ball with either of the feet seals it
Again, here you've made the same incorrect logical leap. Being out of control is step 1 of the thought process, but is not intrinsically dangerous to an opponent. We have to consider where the opponent is in relation to the player who's out of control, and also at what point the player regains some control of their movement.scroll up, where I respectfully tried to explain top flight referee thought process.
again, this coaching may or may not be different in different regions/abilities/level of referee
airbourne, two feet off ground, out of control. ( by being airbourne, you are out of control unless you are Clark Kent or Magneto) and being out of control you are endangering the opponent. Any challenge which endangers ( not, does it actuallly cause harm to, but, endangers) You are nearly red
Not making contact with the ball whilst doing the above, red.
Again, here you've made the same incorrect logical leap. Being out of control is step 1 of the thought process, but is not intrinsically dangerous to an opponent. We have to consider where the opponent is in relation to the player who's out of control, and also at what point the player regains some control of their movement.
It's logically impossible for a lunge to endanger someone if there is no one in the vicinity of the lunge who can be in danger. Just because you've ticked off the first point on a checklist, doesn't entitle you to immediately assume the rest of the requirements are also automatically ticked.
And as a side note, you also need to stop thinking in terms of "contact with the ball" - that's outdated thinking and if you have received coaching any time in the last 20 years, they should have been coaching you away from that line of thinking. Making contact with the ball doesn't suddenly make a dangerous challenge safe, and it's still entirely possible to be sent off for SFP even if you do get the ball.
Again, so what?neither of the defenders feet go near the ball
This is arguably a pointless discussion because your entire premise is off. Lunging + not making contact with the ball (as written by you in post #22) is not the be all and end off of SFP. Continuing to base further posts on that incorrect assumption is going to continue leading you to the incorrect answer.nowhere have i said its black and white, make contact with the bal or else
i alluded to it being part of the thought process, dont play the ball. off
play the ball. maybe not off
he has been airbourne, both feet off ground, is out of control, PLUS makes no contact with the ball
other than with his back as a consolation
joe public park, nothimg to see here
elite official, red card
VAR is not an infallible automoton. It's a person who is under pressure from multiple directions - pressure from his colleague on the pitch to support their call, pressure from broadcasters and media to make the call quickly and pressure from their own superiors to enact various directives and teachings that we're not privy to.He’s lunged, there can’t be any argument about that. The only question remaining is whether it used excessive force or endangered the opponent. I would argue the latter does apply, as once you become airborne you have zero control of your body, where you land and what you land on is nothing more than pot luck.
had it been an incorrect red card VAR would have recommended a review. As Anubis has said, UEFA referees are told to crack down hard on lunges like this, hence why I am not at all surprised at the outcome.
VAR is not an infallible automoton. It's a person who is under pressure from multiple directions - pressure from his colleague on the pitch to support their call, pressure from broadcasters and media to make the call quickly and pressure from their own superiors to enact various directives and teachings that we're not privy to.
I kind of understand how an on-field official could make this incorrect call - the play has moved in an unexpected direction thanks to various flicks and players being pulled out of position, so it's entirely possible he was unsighted at the key moment. But VAR should have helped him out and clarified that the lunge was carried out a safe distance away from the opponent and contact was minimal.
He’s lunged, there can’t be any argument about that. The only question remaining is whether it used excessive force or endangered the opponent. I would argue the latter does apply, as once you become airborne you have zero control of your body, where you land and what you land on is nothing more than pot luck.
He didn't make contact with the opponent during the lunge. They were sequential events - he lunged, landed and then as in the picture posted above, contacted the opponent in the form of the opponent standing on his outstretched leg that was clearly on the ground.It doesn’t matter. In a UEFA game if you lunge and make any contact with the opponent, no matter how minimal, you are likely to be walking. It wasn’t a wrong decision and referee and VAR will be fully backed by the observer because it is what UEFA expects.