A&H

Dortmund vs Ajax

I've cautioned players for those studs up 'lunges' where they don't come near an opponent (argue it another day), but watching this clip I'd be very hard pressed to do that here.

Even the other angle, there's so much space and time I just cannot see getting any card out for Hummels. I'd go the other way tbh.

I think the red is wrong. I also think VAR not stepping in is wrong as well. If that was reviewed on the monitor I'm certain it would be a no sanction incident.
 
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deusex said:
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Endangering the safety of his opponent?
Your games must finish 8v8
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rewind your still less than 1 sec...

at this point, the snap shot we all take in our heads during the game, is telling us red

the only reason games will end 8 v 8 will be due to injury if we tolerate Cobra Kai moves
 

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Anubis said:
rewind your still less than 1 sec...

at this point, the snap shot we all take in our heads during the game, is telling us red

the only reason games will end 8 v 8 will be due to injury if we tolerate Cobra Kai moves
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So what you're saying is that at the point you've highlighted, the Dortmund player is in the air and the Ajax player is a meter away. And then if you wind forward a second, the Dortmund player has landed, positioned himself for a block and the Ajax player has then run into him while he's on the ground.

Which is exactly what we've all been trying to tell you for the last 3 pages. I know we've been discussing this for a while, so maybe your recollection of the full speed incident has drifted a little?

I've said multiple times that I understand why the officials on the field would see a similar view to the still you've posted and get the decision wrong as a result. And I agree with the principal that when we see a player do what you've shown in this still we should be thinking "pay attention, there might be a red here". But you're constantly ignoring the second part of the equation - the still you've posted doesn't show him being a danger to his opponent. The video doesn't show him being a danger to the opponent. This shouldn't be a red card because he doesn't endanger his opponent in this specific case.

There is nothing innately illegal about the act of lunging, it only gets a special mention in the book because lunging into an opponent will often be dangerous. But that doesn't give the act of lunging any special powers to suddenly become dangerous even if there's no opponent nearby.
 
GraemeS said:
So what you're saying is that at the point you've highlighted, the Dortmund player is in the air and the Ajax player is a meter away. And then if you wind forward a second, the Dortmund player has landed, positioned himself for a block and the Ajax player has then run into him while he's on the ground.

Which is exactly what we've all been trying to tell you for the last 3 pages. I know we've been discussing this for a while, so maybe your recollection of the full speed incident has drifted a little?

I've said multiple times that I understand why the officials on the field would see a similar view to the still you've posted and get the decision wrong as a result. And I agree with the principal that when we see a player do what you've shown in this still we should be thinking "pay attention, there might be a red here". But you're constantly ignoring the second part of the equation - the still you've posted doesn't show him being a danger to his opponent. The video doesn't show him being a danger to the opponent. This shouldn't be a red card because he doesn't endanger his opponent in this specific case.

There is nothing innately illegal about the act of lunging, it only gets a special mention in the book because lunging into an opponent will often be dangerous. But that doesn't give the act of lunging any special powers to suddenly become dangerous even if there's no opponent nearby.
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its a red card.
Proven by the ref giving a red, and ( to date) no appeal and if there was an appeal, it be rejected.
no amount of personally quoting what I posted will alter the fact of this red being correct.

as ever, on your park. if you wish to go yellow, nothing, or send off the attacker, its your game, you do as you see fit by the best of your ability
 
Anubis said:
its a red card.
Proven by the ref giving a red, and ( to date) no appeal and if there was an appeal, it be rejected.
no amount of personally quoting what I posted will alter the fact of this red being correct.

as ever, on your park. if you wish to go yellow, nothing, or send off the attacker, its your game, you do as you see fit by the best of your ability
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Wow, you must be new here if you think that argument is going to hold any water! Appeals boards frequently contain ex-players and/or suited non-playing administrators, with referees making up a minority - their judgements are rarely LOTG-accurate.

And as for why they wouldn't appeal? Any red card in European competition only holds a 1-match ban as standard (unlike 3 matches for SFP/VC in the PL) - and appeals boards are much more happy to throw in a punitive extra match or two for a "frivolous" appeal than we're used to in England. Longer suspensions are sometimes applied for SFP/VC via post-match assessment, but that hasn't happened here - also suggesting that the consensus is that this isn't the horrifying act of SFP you seem to think it is!

So they can either not appeal and have him back for the final group game which they are likely to need to win to qualify, or appeal and risk also losing him for that game and even a knockout game or two. The system is set up to discourage appeals and it applies even more so in this case - the reward of a successful appeal is minimal, and the risk of an unsuccessful appeal is huge.

I've already explained multiple times how I think it's an understandable mistake from the on-field official. For someone who's recently asked another poster to be more respectful, I would ask you to do me the respect of not just ignoring my posts. It's also worth pointing out that saying "the referee gave it so it's right" is not an argument that's going to get you anywhere - the existence of the entire "As Seen on TV" sub-forum shows that we're not in the business of just accepting that line of thought here. Referees are human. VAR's are human. They make mistakes, and this is just one example of that.
 
GraemeS said:
Wow, you must be new here if you think that argument is going to hold any water! Appeals boards frequently contain ex-players and/or suited non-playing administrators, with referees making up a minority - their judgements are rarely LOTG-accurate.

And as for why they wouldn't appeal? Any red card in European competition only holds a 1-match ban as standard (unlike 3 matches for SFP/VC in the PL) - and appeals boards are much more happy to throw in a punitive extra match or two for a "frivolous" appeal than we're used to in England. Longer suspensions are sometimes applied for SFP/VC via post-match assessment, but that hasn't happened here - also suggesting that the consensus is that this isn't the horrifying act of SFP you seem to think it is!

So they can either not appeal and have him back for the final group game which they are likely to need to win to qualify, or appeal and risk also losing him for that game and even a knockout game or two. The system is set up to discourage appeals and it applies even more so in this case - the reward of a successful appeal is minimal, and the risk of an unsuccessful appeal is huge.

I've already explained multiple times how I think it's an understandable mistake from the on-field official. For someone who's recently asked another poster to be more respectful, I would ask you to do me the respect of not just ignoring my posts. It's also worth pointing out that saying "the referee gave it so it's right" is not an argument that's going to get you anywhere - the existence of the entire "As Seen on TV" sub-forum shows that we're not in the business of just accepting that line of thought here. Referees are human. VAR's are human. They make mistakes, and this is just one example of that.
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Please stop trying to squabble with me,
You are saying its not a red, am saying it is

i can respect your decision not to dismiss, without agreeing with it
kindly do the same in reverse
 
Anubis said:
its a red card.
Proven by the ref giving a red, and ( to date) no appeal and if there was an appeal, it be rejected.
no amount of personally quoting what I posted will alter the fact of this red being correct.

as ever, on your park. if you wish to go yellow, nothing, or send off the attacker, its your game, you do as you see fit by the best of your ability
Click to expand...
Dortmund are appealing it.

Not going to debate it, I don't see a red card offence here, and I expect to see it overturned irrespective of the make up of the appeal board. Not sure what that looks like at UEFA.

I do understand that the early part of this challenge, and rightly so, should have the alarm bells ringing, however, no safety was endangered in the making of this tackle and therefore I don't agree with the red card decsion.
 
Anubis said:
Please stop trying to squabble with me,
You are saying its not a red, am saying it is

i can respect your decision not to dismiss, without agreeing with it
kindly do the same in reverse
Click to expand...
Again, you seem to be forgetting this is a forum of referees. I've seen and used the exact trick you're trying on me hundreds of times!

You've shown very few signs of respect in this thread, to me or to multiple other posters. This forum is used as an educational resource by a lot of the users, so when someone is defending an incorrect decision, it shouldn't be a huge surprise to see others discussing why that is the case. And up until this point, I have been doing so in a considerably more respectful tone than you have been displaying.

You're not here as a neutral arbiter trying to control a bunch of players, you're here as a referee among peers. And I think you need to consider your tone with that environment in mind.

I'll leave it there because you're clearly determined not to change your opinion. But next time you're thinking of demanding respect, I'd seriously consider avoiding saying things like "After your Narnia self introduced duration of the match practise", along with your constant implication that the reason we're not seeing things your way is because we're not "elite" referees. Respect goes both ways, and nonsense like that is not going to generate the respectful environment you're suddenly now demanding.
 
Anubis said:
scroll up, where I respectfully tried to explain top flight referee thought process.

again, this coaching may or may not be different in different regions/abilities/level of referee


airbourne, two feet off ground, out of control. ( by being airbourne, you are out of control unless you are Clark Kent or Magneto) and being out of control you are endangering the opponent. Any challenge which endangers ( not, does it actuallly cause harm to, but, endangers) You are nearly red
Not making contact with the ball whilst doing the above, red.
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In no way has he endangered his opponent. By the time there’s any contact, his feet has gone past the attacker, and the attacker has actually landed on top of his calf. I accept that coming off the ground doesn’t look good, but the fact he’s got nowhere near the player means he didn’t endanger him.
 
RustyRef said:
He’s lunged, there can’t be any argument about that. The only question remaining is whether it used excessive force or endangered the opponent. I would argue the latter does apply, as once you become airborne you have zero control of your body, where you land and what you land on is nothing more than pot luck.

had it been an incorrect red card VAR would have recommended a review. As Anubis has said, UEFA referees are told to crack down hard on lunges like this, hence why I am not at all surprised at the outcome.
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Feels like an "orange" which basically means that VAR will back the referee whatever decision they make, very similar to an observer backing the ref as long as they can give a credible justification in law for it.

I can see either side of going yellow or red here.
 
JamesL said:
Dortmund are appealing it.

Not going to debate it, I don't see a red card offence here, and I expect to see it overturned irrespective of the make up of the appeal board. Not sure what that looks like at UEFA.

I do understand that the early part of this challenge, and rightly so, should have the alarm bells ringing, however, no safety was endangered in the making of this tackle and therefore I don't agree with the red card decsion.
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I'm pretty sure you can't appeal sendings off in EUFA comps.
 
JamesL said:
You can appeal the suspension, I believe.
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I thought that was only if they added additional games to the standard one game suspension. I certainly can't ever recall a player being sent off in a UEFA game and not serving a suspension.
 
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