one
RefChat Addict
While I would penalise every time if it not trifling , I don't blame others for thinking that way. IFAB has opened that road with the guidelines for VAR.
DOGSO handball, red. Then loss of control
- Thread starter ladbroke8745
- Start date
ladbroke8745
RefChat Addict
I appreciate it's been a few days since a reply..
Just to clarify things.
The encroachment was as much as he was in line with the penalty taker on both occasions, having effectively got in between me and the kicker/penalty mark on the actual kicking off the ball. This is no 1 or 2 yards which I generally accept unless it is a clear advantage to the defending team.
My positioning etc during a penalty is as follows:
Talk to the player first and foremost once the ball has been placed and I am happy that he must wait on my whistle.
Talk to the keeper, asking that he remains on the goal line until the kick is taken - not too fussed if a yard off when taken as for me it's natural movement.
Talk (loud enough for all to hear whilst looking at all in a general sweep) to all players on the edge of the area/D that they should not be in until the kick is taken - and like the keeper, not generally fussed over a yard or so.
The fact this player was already in the forefront of my mind following his dissent he'd just dished out, he came in a good 6 or 7 yards to be a couple of yards from the kicker upon the actual kick of the ball. Keeper saved it and on this I awarded a retake.
I normally watch the kicker at first with one eye on the outside and sweep in towards the kicker and keeper on the kick off the ball to ensure the keeper is on, or at most a yard off, the line. Penalise if need be. I also stand between the 6 goal area and penalty mark (away from goal obviously) so that I have a wide view of the set piece.
So once the first penalty was taken, and saved, I blew whistle and called captain and offending player in. This was more not to give a rollicking to the offender but to remind him that he must stay out the area and captain only because he was the only civil person I could explain and be accepted decision.
The chat with them explained why I am retaking and then reiterated my initial words to those outside the area that they must remain outside the area until the ball is kicked.
Ball placed down and same process again, tell kicker on whistle, keeper to stay on the line and players all out of area and said sterner this time, a little more aimed at the player late given 2nd caution.
Blew whistle and the defender is again in line of the kicker at the point of kicking the ball.
Ball saved again by the keeper and so I resorted to blown whistle again and ordering retake.
Having just had a word with him for it, making it 3 times he heard it (first sweep before 1st penalty, his talking to with captain and the 2nd sweep before 2nd penalty) I felt he was ignoring me and decided to caution him for persistent infringement. The fact he had a caution moments earlier had no effect on this caution other than it lead to being a red.
I felt that if I didn't act on it then people will ignore my warnings later on.
This was my thinking/logic around all this.
Hope it explains it a bit more and those can understand it from my perspective.
Just to clarify things.
The encroachment was as much as he was in line with the penalty taker on both occasions, having effectively got in between me and the kicker/penalty mark on the actual kicking off the ball. This is no 1 or 2 yards which I generally accept unless it is a clear advantage to the defending team.
My positioning etc during a penalty is as follows:
Talk to the player first and foremost once the ball has been placed and I am happy that he must wait on my whistle.
Talk to the keeper, asking that he remains on the goal line until the kick is taken - not too fussed if a yard off when taken as for me it's natural movement.
Talk (loud enough for all to hear whilst looking at all in a general sweep) to all players on the edge of the area/D that they should not be in until the kick is taken - and like the keeper, not generally fussed over a yard or so.
The fact this player was already in the forefront of my mind following his dissent he'd just dished out, he came in a good 6 or 7 yards to be a couple of yards from the kicker upon the actual kick of the ball. Keeper saved it and on this I awarded a retake.
I normally watch the kicker at first with one eye on the outside and sweep in towards the kicker and keeper on the kick off the ball to ensure the keeper is on, or at most a yard off, the line. Penalise if need be. I also stand between the 6 goal area and penalty mark (away from goal obviously) so that I have a wide view of the set piece.
So once the first penalty was taken, and saved, I blew whistle and called captain and offending player in. This was more not to give a rollicking to the offender but to remind him that he must stay out the area and captain only because he was the only civil person I could explain and be accepted decision.
The chat with them explained why I am retaking and then reiterated my initial words to those outside the area that they must remain outside the area until the ball is kicked.
Ball placed down and same process again, tell kicker on whistle, keeper to stay on the line and players all out of area and said sterner this time, a little more aimed at the player late given 2nd caution.
Blew whistle and the defender is again in line of the kicker at the point of kicking the ball.
Ball saved again by the keeper and so I resorted to blown whistle again and ordering retake.
Having just had a word with him for it, making it 3 times he heard it (first sweep before 1st penalty, his talking to with captain and the 2nd sweep before 2nd penalty) I felt he was ignoring me and decided to caution him for persistent infringement. The fact he had a caution moments earlier had no effect on this caution other than it lead to being a red.
I felt that if I didn't act on it then people will ignore my warnings later on.
This was my thinking/logic around all this.
Hope it explains it a bit more and those can understand it from my perspective.
This is one of these situations where you dig your heels in, because if you don't you seem inconsistent and weak and if you do you seem harsh and intransigent.
Welcome to refereeing. It's ****ing hard at times.
Welcome to refereeing. It's ****ing hard at times.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Hi @ladbroke8745
Thanks for the explanation of the incident. After all that, I'm now inclined to think you had no choice at all in any of it! Sounds like you handled it really well. Sometimes the teams just won't respond well even if you've done the right thing.
After you gave him that clear 1-on-1 warning and he did such a severe breach again...well, it's an easy card. He kind of put you in a position where you can't NOT give that one.
Thanks for the explanation of the incident. After all that, I'm now inclined to think you had no choice at all in any of it! Sounds like you handled it really well. Sometimes the teams just won't respond well even if you've done the right thing.
After you gave him that clear 1-on-1 warning and he did such a severe breach again...well, it's an easy card. He kind of put you in a position where you can't NOT give that one.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
If the offender was that far into the area, he must been moving while the kicker was in his run up?
In which case, a good proactive blast on the whistle along with sending the miscreant back out of the area could have prevented a hard to sell unnecessary 2nd caution.....especially as you must have been watching him after his earlier encroachment?
In which case, a good proactive blast on the whistle along with sending the miscreant back out of the area could have prevented a hard to sell unnecessary 2nd caution.....especially as you must have been watching him after his earlier encroachment?
ladbroke8745
RefChat Addict
But if the attacker scored the penalty you are penalising him (or her) by making them retake it because a defender encroached, potentially causing the attacker a bit of nerves and the idea of having to change where they put the next one, if they change, as you've given the keeper an idea of where you put it.
If that is what you'd do, then as a manager I'd tell my player to keep encroaching in the hope it puts the other team off. What's the worse that can happen. He scores from the spot, whether original kick or retake - no other punishment.
If that is what you'd do, then as a manager I'd tell my player to keep encroaching in the hope it puts the other team off. What's the worse that can happen. He scores from the spot, whether original kick or retake - no other punishment.
one
RefChat Addict
This is against Law 14 and can have unfair consequences to the non-offending team. I would not recommend it.
spuddy1878
RefChat Addict
I dont think i could give a third retake (after two misses) unless a defender was jumping on the takers back.
one
RefChat Addict
I am woth @one here @Padfoot. If a goal is scored then there is no need for a retake, and the lad gets away with it. Its only by virtue of a missed penalty that the offence occurs...
Writing that down and processing makes it seem a harsh caution, yes, but I think the OP has backed himself into a corner, and to retain control and authority a yellow card had to ensue. Correct if wrong.
So my advice to the OP is not about whether the card was right or not, but consider how you deliver a message to a player. Don't say, do that again I will caution/book you/insert favourite phrase. Instead try saying, if you commit another offence There might be further consequences and remind them.that they have already been cautioned.
Fwiw I do think the yellow was harsh here but I understand why it had to be given. However, when the penalty is missed, the other team are then given another opportunity to score it.. I think that is punishment enough as his team mates are gunna be all over himm when the penalty is eventually scored following 2 misses.
Writing that down and processing makes it seem a harsh caution, yes, but I think the OP has backed himself into a corner, and to retain control and authority a yellow card had to ensue. Correct if wrong.
So my advice to the OP is not about whether the card was right or not, but consider how you deliver a message to a player. Don't say, do that again I will caution/book you/insert favourite phrase. Instead try saying, if you commit another offence There might be further consequences and remind them.that they have already been cautioned.
Fwiw I do think the yellow was harsh here but I understand why it had to be given. However, when the penalty is missed, the other team are then given another opportunity to score it.. I think that is punishment enough as his team mates are gunna be all over himm when the penalty is eventually scored following 2 misses.
Failure to respect the required distance?
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Pretty inconsistent then, isn't it? Player encroaches 6 yards, first time it's a retake, 2nd time it isn't? Have the courage to do your job and not be 'last week's referee.
spuddy1878
RefChat Addict
Fully understand that and i suppose it depends on how obvious it was, just feel you could quickly lose control of a game if you go for a third re-take especially after both spot kicks have been missed.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Page 120 of the book does not appear to justify a caution for the defender,
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
For me I cant class that as dissent. Unsporting behaviour, or persistent infringment maybe or as above, not respecting the required distance?
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Then you’ll be cautioning every player who doesn’t follow your instructions after the first time?
For everything?
Don't understand that argument at all. There's a distance at which he's expected to stand until the ball is kicked, helpfully marked out in clear white lines. If you choose to caution him for being wtihin those white lines when the ball is kicked, it clearly comes under failing to respect the distance?
Dissent is public disagreement with a decision. This doesn't fall into that category.