The Ref Stop

David Elleray story

The Ref Stop
At the time the FA hadn't received a formal complaint, now there has been one I suspect they will have to act. They will have no credibility if they don't act, given they have been charging players for historical social media posts. For example, Marc Bola was recently charged for posts he made when he was 14, so you can't then not charge someone who was 60 years old at the time he made then entirely inappropriate comments. A 14 year old can possibly be excused for not knowing better, a 60 year old most certainly cannot.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't charged in 2014, so there is no issue with double jeopardy.
 
RustyRef said:
At the time the FA hadn't received a formal complaint, now there has been one I suspect they will have to act. They will have no credibility if they don't act, given they have been charging players for historical social media posts. For example, Marc Bola was recently charged for posts he made when he was 14, so you can't then not charge someone who was 60 years old at the time he made then entirely inappropriate comments. A 14 year old can possibly be excused for not knowing better, a 60 year old most certainly cannot.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't charged in 2014, so there is no issue with double jeopardy.
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I do find it odd somebody has complained 7 years after the event.

Seems wrong to me as that complaint may not be genuine. Would i wait 7 years to complain - no.
 
Kent Ref said:
I do find it odd somebody has complained 7 years after the event.

Seems wrong to me as that complaint may not be genuine. Would i wait 7 years to complain - no.
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Society now panders to this rubbish sadly.
Nothing good will effectively be achieved by it except for the "whistleblower" feeling smug and self-righteous.
 
To me it seems that the two above posts come from a view that the allegations are untrue. If in deed it did happen there will be plenty good coming from it. And there are plenty reason why it could take years for someone to bring up historical allegations.

On the flip side if it not true it can cause a lot of unjust damage.

I am neutral on this and don't see a good solution. For me society as a whole is responsible for getting ourselves into this mess where we have to choose between damaging an innocent person's reputation or ignoring the allegations.
 
one said:
To me it seems that the two above posts come from a view that the allegations are untrue. If in deed it did happen there will be plenty good coming from it.
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Case in point.

Elleray loses his job. Whistleblower feels smug and "vindicated".

Talk me through the "plenty good" ...

And for what it's worth, I'd say it's more likely to be true than not. 😉
 
The same good as any punishment given to those for other indiscretions / sanctions.

Why would we ever punish someone for making racist comments on the pitch or anywhere else? The biggest reason for me is that others would see and learn if they do it they would be punished.

And of course we can't be selective about who we punish and who we don't.
 
one said:
Let me put the question back at you then. Are you saying there is no good in punishing people for being racist?
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Of course not. (And you know that). Racism is a poison and must be dealt with. For instance, the repetitive and ongoing abuse directed at players by fans (and other players!) at many matches still. There's plenty good.
Trawling back 7 years in order to persecute somebody (purely because they are a somebody) for an ill-thought-out comment they made in order to pander to an ongoing notion of appeasement... ?

Now, again, please explain, in minute detail if you have to, the "plenty good" in that.
 
That those who are 'somebody' don't think they can make racist comments and think if I can get away with it in the next few years then it's ok.

And those who are not 'somebody' can see if a somebody couldn't get away with it, there is little chance that they could.

Being ill thought trough has nothing to do with this. For me passive racism if just as bad.
 
one said:
That those who are 'somebody' don't think they can make racist comments and think if I can get away with it in the next few years then it's ok.

And those who are not 'somebody' can see if a somebody couldn't get away with it, there is little chance that they could.

Being ill thought trough has nothing to do with this. For me passive racism if just as bad.
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No real good then.

No tangible difference to anybody's life (except Elleray's) and for what?

In any event you'd have to be of the opinion that the alleged words used constitute "racism" first (which I'm not) and secondly, and more importantly, this conversation is doomed purely because of it's subject matter. Again, an indication of what has become wrong with society.

End of discussion...
 
Kes said:
No real good then.

No tangible difference to anybody's life (except Elleray's) and for what?

In any event you'd have to be of the opinion that the alleged words used constitute "racism" first (which I'm not) and secondly, and more importantly, this conversation is doomed purely because of it's subject matter. Again, an indication of what has become wrong with society.

End of discussion...
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You are changing tact now. If anyone thinks those words being told to a black person is not at the very least passive racism need to reevaluate their understand of it is by talking to people who have been at the receiving end of it. My opinion of course.

A lot of your reasoning is opinion based . So is mine. And in my opinion I find your views contradictory, on the one hand you say you don't advocate not punishing racism. On the other hand you are willing to make exceptions.

Happy to end discussion here....
 
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one said:
To me it seems that the two above posts come from a view that the allegations are untrue. If in deed it did happen there will be plenty good coming from it. And there are plenty reason why it could take years for someone to bring up historical allegations.

On the flip side if it not true it can cause a lot of unjust damage.

I am neutral on this and don't see a good solution. For me society as a whole is responsible for getting ourselves into this mess where we have to choose between damaging an innocent person's reputation or ignoring the allegations.
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I think it's likely the story is true as this came out at the time. I'm pretty sure i read it somewhere.

What i cannot get me head around is this is 7 years later. The fact that DE was sent on a course by the FA appears to be "action taken" by the authorities.

Is the complainant now "point scoring" for some reason? Who knows?
 
Kent Ref said:
I think it's likely the story is true as this came out at the time. I'm pretty sure i read it somewhere.

What i cannot get me head around is this is 7 years later. The fact that DE was sent on a course by the FA appears to be "action taken" by the authorities.

Is the complainant now "point scoring" for some reason? Who knows?
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Take a step back and look at this in the round.

The cricket situation is almost certainly the catalyst for this. Action is now correctly being taken, and it’s brought to light a lot of things. Some which appear to have been taken way out of context, and will likely be disregarded, but other more obvious things that just be dealt with.

There’s a sense (to me at least) of a greater impetus for accountability. Going on a course will appear to some to be “sweeping under the carpet”, an easy way out; for others it will be a step in the right direction.

More broadly I’m hopeful and positive about this. It should bring greater accountability and make processes much more robust. That’s a really good thing. Not only because it will tackle the headline-grabbing issues, but also weed out the more spurious things as the processes are refined.

Now as a moderator - I’m not asking you to self censor, but to think carefully before you post. Be sure you’re clear and whether your point or comment is appropriate right now. This is a live issue, and a contentious one at that with potential to become much bigger. We don’t want anyone falling foul of bringing the game into disrepute charges because of comments made on here.

We’ll be careful to pull anything that looks to fall in that territory, but know it is not “you can’t have an opinion”. It’s about protecting all of us.
 
On the one hand, Elleray got off very lightly at the time. On the other, I'm against the Media/Commercially driven culture of dredging historic stuff up and being judgemental by today's standards
 
Big Cat said:
On the one hand, Elleray got off very lightly at the time. On the other, I'm against the Media/Commercially driven culture of dredging historic stuff up and being judgemental by today's standards
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It isn't the media, a whistleblower has made a formal complaint to the FA and the media are just reporting on that.

The issue is that other FA employees, such as Greg Clarke and Barry Bright, have lost their jobs over similar comments. Plus, as I mantioned earlier, players have been charged for social media posts they made when they were teenagers, and for those reasons I don't see how they can do anything other than charge Elleray if they are to have any kind of credibility. That or stop pursuing other employees and players for historic offences, and clearly that wouldn't be the right thing to do.
 
RustyRef said:
It isn't the media, a whistleblower has made a formal complaint to the FA and the media are just reporting on that.

The issue is that other FA employees, such as Greg Clarke and Barry Bright, have lost their jobs over similar comments. Plus, as I mantioned earlier, players have been charged for social media posts they made when they were teenagers, and for those reasons I don't see how they can do anything other than charge Elleray if they are to have any kind of credibility. That or stop pursuing other employees and players for historic offences, and clearly that wouldn't be the right thing to do.
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The whistle-blower is fuelling the engine. It's the engine I don't like
Our opinion probably doesn't differ too much on what actually happened. Just take a look at the demographics of organisations like IFAB to reach conclusions. Nonetheless, I'm generally against historic lynching, although I guess this is as much about the FA as it is Elleray
FWIW, I don't like DE and I'm massively opposed to the influence he's had on the game, notwithstanding what he said WRT the OP
 
Tealeaf said:
The cricket situation is almost certainly the catalyst for this. Action is now correctly being taken, and it’s brought to light a lot of things.
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Exactly.

The allegations are coming out now because parts of society are taking control of the issue and taking action on the allegations, whereas the old boys club of the past would casually sweep it under the carpet and socially exclude you for not putting up with 'banter' - this is what we've already seen within cricket, it's not too far stretched to imagine it happens in football and other sports too.

I think it's pretty obvious in the context why allegations are coming out now, to pretend otherwise says a lot IMO.
 
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