Cray Wanderers v Canvey Island
- Thread starter RefGod
- Start date
Guessing they weren't using buzzers, which is fairly rare at that level. If they had been I suspect the referee stops the game straight away and there's no debate to be had. A tricky one as conventional wisdom says you would never play advantage when a defender is heading it clear in his defensive half.
Perhaps this comes down to pre-match instructions? I would generally say if I miss your flag keep it up until I see you or the defensive team have clear possession back in a safe area. I'd be expecting the AR to drop the flag here once the ball breaks to the Cray goal scorer, and certainly once the goal is scored, don't get much more of an advantage than that. Judging by the AR's agitated flag right at the end of the video I'd guess someone spoke out of line and also got himself in hot water, which really just compounds the issue.
Interestingly the Cray website says the referee played advantage, which he clearly didn't, he just never saw the flag.
It was a lively second half but Cray were rather unfortunate not to score a third when Yahya Bamba got on the end of a pass to break into the area down the left to slot home but the goal was disallowed as it came after a Canvey player was offside and although the referee played an advantage the goal was chalked off for the earlier offside.
Perhaps this comes down to pre-match instructions? I would generally say if I miss your flag keep it up until I see you or the defensive team have clear possession back in a safe area. I'd be expecting the AR to drop the flag here once the ball breaks to the Cray goal scorer, and certainly once the goal is scored, don't get much more of an advantage than that. Judging by the AR's agitated flag right at the end of the video I'd guess someone spoke out of line and also got himself in hot water, which really just compounds the issue.
Interestingly the Cray website says the referee played advantage, which he clearly didn't, he just never saw the flag.
It was a lively second half but Cray were rather unfortunate not to score a third when Yahya Bamba got on the end of a pass to break into the area down the left to slot home but the goal was disallowed as it came after a Canvey player was offside and although the referee played an advantage the goal was chalked off for the earlier offside.
The incident occurs in the 47th minute so there might have been direction of play confusion
More likely, the player was offside (or may have been offside in a close call)
The AR may have been encouraged to flag because there was an observer there. Point scoring for a 'clever offside' maybe?
It was not a foul because the R indicates an IDFK
If this was a tight call, it teaches me that the AR should have left it alone. The game usually doesn't expect these offsides and they can be very dangerous. The Referee should have removed the AR away from the TA's and taken more time to digest what had happened. All easy to say when armed with nothing more than a keyboard
Disaster
More likely, the player was offside (or may have been offside in a close call)
The AR may have been encouraged to flag because there was an observer there. Point scoring for a 'clever offside' maybe?
It was not a foul because the R indicates an IDFK
If this was a tight call, it teaches me that the AR should have left it alone. The game usually doesn't expect these offsides and they can be very dangerous. The Referee should have removed the AR away from the TA's and taken more time to digest what had happened. All easy to say when armed with nothing more than a keyboard
Disaster
You can't choose whether or not to flag for an offside, that isn't the issue here. The issue is at what point he should have dropped the flag.
You can if you've learned from experience that some (rare) flags add nothing to the game whatsoever, are not expected.... and ultimately get you and the R into trouble. I know you'll disagree (strongly), but I don't care
Although I would care (somewhat) if my games were video reviewed
The flag in the OP is not the absolute cause of the chaos, but it does trigger the debacle. Let's just say that I've learned not to 'point score' with the Observer as a L4, largely because my score counts for nowt
RefGod
Active Member
The clip has essentially gone viral. The referee himself has commented to apologise, it's not the first time he's come to attention for controversy this season at Step 3.
Whilst I cannot fathom how a level 4 who would predominantly act as an AR, does not drop the flag, the referee must take responsibility. The offside (which is questionable positionally from the footage and the impact is also debateable) may be correctly flagged but it has somehow then ruled out a goal for the offended team.
I was seething when I then saw the vigorous agitation, presumably for some form of dissent.
Whilst I cannot fathom how a level 4 who would predominantly act as an AR, does not drop the flag, the referee must take responsibility. The offside (which is questionable positionally from the footage and the impact is also debateable) may be correctly flagged but it has somehow then ruled out a goal for the offended team.
I was seething when I then saw the vigorous agitation, presumably for some form of dissent.
RefGod
Active Member
I can understand aspects of this at contrib and the clip in itself backs your point. However, if not for this controversy, a competent observer would be able to reward an AR in similar situations,.
I'm just saying that if the forward is half a body, maybe a body offside, in this incident, without video review, the flag just hasn't been worth the pain. If the game doesn't expect the flag, the observer is very unlikely to notice at this level and we all go home happy
You can't possibly know that, at the time of the ball being played the camera is nowhere near the defensive line. He could be easily 2 metres offside for all we know.
If I was observing at that level, and I happened to be sat close enough to the offside line, I'd be expecting the AR to do his job and flag it. Granted I'd then want that flag to be dropped as the attack developed, but the initial offside offence should be signalled.
Clear offside is not the topic of debate. Very unlikely this incident fitted that bill. That said, I'd be amazed if this was 'clear offside' , although we can't know that definitively
Observers promote indoctrination. If you're offside, get the flag up. Observer indoctrination occasionally is not 'right' however. As VAR demonstrates every week, the game is rather nuanced
Anyway, ultimately the discussion between R and AR is 'the disaster'. Not just the words, but the process and the hurried nature of it
The two of them could take 5 mins in private to reach the right decision. Instead it's 15 seconds of their lives' to forget, right in front of and in earshot of the TA's (with one occupant defo in earshot judging by the frantic flag moments later)
I'd expect a 'reclassification score for the R'. That's not being harsh. It's a harsh World out there
Last edited:
santa sangria
RefChat Addict
Horrible from both. Mistakes happen.
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
Totally understand where you are coming from. However, with more and more games getting videoed, my advice when you are working as an AR is simply to do your job. If an attacker come back from an offside position and clearly plays / challenges for the ball or interferes with play then get your flag up unless an advantage is immediately apparent. Not only are you properly enforcing the LOTG but you're demonstrating alertness with regard to offside position and in 90+% of cases you then have the opportunity to demonstrate great signalling technique by working through the correct 'coming back' process.
Before signalling for an offence, the AR must determine that:
the referee would not have applied the advantage
From the Guidance Section..... Whilst this applies to 'Fouls', I think there are uncommon occasions when the AR can be mindful of this applying to offside. I'm only referring to these rare occasions (like in the OP) when the offside flag was almost certainly not expected, added no value and caused more bother than it merited
Yes, I mean, this is what I'm referring to in terms of 'point scoring'. The AR is more focused on ticking boxes to pick up points, rather than what's good for the game. That can't be a good thing for the game itself
Anyway, I think we'd understand one another's viewpoint
The big mistake in the OP is 'process'. The 'process' during which the R speaks to the AR. The conversation should not happen right in front of the TA and it clearly led to misunderstanding, the wrong outcome and further misconduct. The learning point we can all take away, is take your fr1g^!^$ time when consulting with colleagues. I'm certain we've all been very guilty of hurried exchanges. Why do we place emphasis on haste in these situations? It's a curious thing. I'm of a mind that we should take literally 'as long as it takes'
I know this referee. For some reason his games seem to constitute about half the clips I see from clubs claiming the officials are awful.
If you saw the one where the ref gives a handball because he thinks he's come out of the PA before releasing at at a fly kick, (he hadn't) that was him too.
If you saw the one where the ref gives a handball because he thinks he's come out of the PA before releasing at at a fly kick, (he hadn't) that was him too.
I'm 95% with you here. There's a sweet spot. There does become a point where the process is too long and even with a right decision it doesn't look/feel good.
As an AR you need to be accurate and concise with the info. As a referee you need to interpret that info, ask questions where needed and then remember what happened (easier said than done).
socal lurker
RefChat Addict
Everything I have ever been taught is that an AR should drop the OS flag if it is missed and the defending team gains clear possession and moves forward. Is anything different taught in England? (I can’t remember if that is in the magic book or not.)
No, standard instructions are to keep the flag up until you are confident the defending team have an advantage. Probably gets discussed less in pre-match instructions these days as so many referees use buzzers, but I can't remember ever being given an instruction to keep the (missed) flag up ad infinitum.