DanCohen17
Simply The Best
Added to this, RefSecs will also put low-marking teams and refs they don't like or want demoted together!
club/league marks
- Thread starter richard ramjane
- Start date
I have refereed now for 5 seasons now and even though I'm one of the referees that believes that as padfoot says and personally I agree with padfoot I've always been a referee that will deal with it I had a friendly yesterday which resaulted me cautioning a player for dissent and sending another for foul and abusive if I'm going to keep getting abuse I'm just gonna keep sending them in it's getting to a point that they think it's ok just to give a referee abuse and if your a referee that does not card for these two things then and you would rather referee for club marks then your just causing a problem for next week referee
The old club marks chestnut.........what a load of balderdash they are!
Very few amongst grass roots players and managers have the nous to know the difference between referee skill sets other than good game bad game.
Rusty, if you don't know who your 'better' referees are by other means then your not the ref. sec. I thought you were! If nothing else disciplinary reports and the rumour mill will be good indicators.
Club marks, utter ****e, whether good bad or indifferent.
Very few amongst grass roots players and managers have the nous to know the difference between referee skill sets other than good game bad game.
Rusty, if you don't know who your 'better' referees are by other means then your not the ref. sec. I thought you were! If nothing else disciplinary reports and the rumour mill will be good indicators.
Club marks, utter ****e, whether good bad or indifferent.
Analyse every yellow you give for dissent. Get to the root cause. For example...
Scenario A - Player thinks you got a corner wrong. Are you 100% sure you got it right? Were you in best position? If yes to both questions he might just be the team idiot and deserve it. If not, make sure you work on your positioning/fitness for next time.
Scenario B - Player keeps chirping.....could you have had a word before he crossed the line? Could telling the skipper his player is coming close going to stop him? At the very least it sells it to everyone that you're not going to stand for it.
Scenario C - Someone shouts leave it, all hell kicks off. Book everyone and lament the fact they won't listen to you!
Dissent needs dealing with, and there isn't an excuse for it. But it's usually a good coaching point for self assessment....except Scenario C! Use it to your advantage going forward.
Scenario A - Player thinks you got a corner wrong. Are you 100% sure you got it right? Were you in best position? If yes to both questions he might just be the team idiot and deserve it. If not, make sure you work on your positioning/fitness for next time.
Scenario B - Player keeps chirping.....could you have had a word before he crossed the line? Could telling the skipper his player is coming close going to stop him? At the very least it sells it to everyone that you're not going to stand for it.
Scenario C - Someone shouts leave it, all hell kicks off. Book everyone and lament the fact they won't listen to you!
Dissent needs dealing with, and there isn't an excuse for it. But it's usually a good coaching point for self assessment....except Scenario C! Use it to your advantage going forward.
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
this should cover it adequately In my defence Minty I have seen at least 50% of the league panel referees on games, and the club marks pretty much match my impression of them.
The key thing is that the RefsSec looks carefully at the justification email that has to be sent for marks of under 61. You can usually tell from these whether it is a case of sour grapes or whether the referee genuinely did have a poor game. There are also other factors, for example the score - if a team won 10-0 and are still complaining about the referee it is more likely to be valid than from a team who had lost 3-2. Likewise are they getting repeated complaints - I had one referee who received 6 complaints in his first 5 games, and there is clearly likely to be something wrong there.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
All the hand wringing in the world won't justify players abusing referees (yes, dissent is a form of abuse).
Whether you got a decision right or,wrong, whether you could've saved a player from themselves...all utterly irrelevant because you are not there to be a whipping post for players frustrations.....
From what's posted above its a short, and dangerous, step to a 'if it's my fault I won't caution them......' mindset.
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
And from what you've posted above it's an equally short and dangerous step to a 'referees can do no wrong, it's all the fault of those stupid players' mindset. In my opinion
I've said within that post that it's what you do after dealing with them. Self assessment is still the best tool any referee has as you're the only person who fully understands why you made each and every decision.
It might not remove dissent from the game but it may point you in the area of something that is continuously causing you problems and allow you to deal with it.
But that relies on you being able to admit to a mistake which I doubt you can
It might not remove dissent from the game but it may point you in the area of something that is continuously causing you problems and allow you to deal with it.
But that relies on you being able to admit to a mistake which I doubt you can
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
And from what you've posted above it's an equally short and dangerous step to a 'referees can do no wrong, it's all the fault of those stupid players' mindset. In my opinion
Nowhere have i stated that "referees can do no wrong" or that you shouldn't undertake some honest self appraisal post game.......what i have said is that regardless of whether the referee was right or wrong in their decision, they aren't there to be abused.
The danger in guiding new and inexperienced officials down a path of self reflection, especially when considering dissent, is that they will take a thought process onto the FOP where they fail to deal with dissent because in their minds they have doubts over the validity of their decision making.......they have to have the confidence to make decisions, both good and bad, without fear of being abused.....and they will only do that when they understand that they don't have to accept it as "part of the game" etc
Oh, and yes, dissent is totally unequivocally the fault of the player......they have a choice....they can accept the decision and get on with the game, or they can choose to whine and moan like a whinging spoiled child having a temper tantrum.....it's their choice. If they can't control themselves maybe they need a time out to consider their behaviour?
No one is saying not to discipline them. What I am saying is that dissent leads from a perceived injustice. If you're finding that you keep booking the 6 foot 4 tall CB, with a general theme that you're punishing them for challenging the 5 ft 7 CF and they're getting wound up that maybe you should look at how you deal with that battle.
It's not about managing dissent it's about stopping it from happening by improving performance
It's not about managing dissent it's about stopping it from happening by improving performance
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
@Padfoot , great that you do in fact see both the fallibility of officials and the benefit of self reflection. I take your point regarding the dangers of newer officials 'over thinking' the topic of dissent and ending up solely seeing it as 'their' problem.
. This is where I think your black / white view becomes unhelpful. Darius gives a good example of where a referee might be 'part of the problem'. I had another in a recent game ... 75 minutes of next to zero dissent in a hotly contested but good natured match, I then give a FK for a challenge 25 yards out which evokes significant protest from half a dozen of the defending players. On reflection, I'm pretty confident this means I got the decision wrong as a result of poor positioning. Doesn't excuse the dissent but makes me feel irritated and somewhat guilty that I ended up carding the most vociferous culprit. Obviously he 'deserved' it, because he had a choice over how to react but part of the beauty of football is that it is a passionate game and I wish I hadn't unnecessarily put him in the position of having a choice to make ....
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
The choice is really simple for players....accept the decision of the officials (understanding that they can make mistakes the same as any other human being can) and move on, or decide to have a hissy fit berating the official for effectively being human and then getting even more outraged when they shove a yellow card in your direction.......
No one forces players to play.....if they don't like the fact that part of the game is accepting decisions that they might not agree with then go and find another outlet for their frustrations....
But Padfoot he's just given you the perfect example of what we're advocating.
Book player for Dissent.
Analyse afterwards.
This results in Russell realising he was out of position. He can now work on his positioning. This might mean he decides that fitness would help as its late on in the game, so he works on this area and becomes a better referee.
He may instead find he was out of position because he briefly lost concentration resulting in him being out of position. He now knows that between 70 and 80 minutes he must put in extra effort to concentrate and becomes a better referee.
This is where your black and white thinking of refereeing is fundamentally flawed IMO. You need to adapt and learn on every game you do.
Book player for Dissent.
Analyse afterwards.
This results in Russell realising he was out of position. He can now work on his positioning. This might mean he decides that fitness would help as its late on in the game, so he works on this area and becomes a better referee.
He may instead find he was out of position because he briefly lost concentration resulting in him being out of position. He now knows that between 70 and 80 minutes he must put in extra effort to concentrate and becomes a better referee.
This is where your black and white thinking of refereeing is fundamentally flawed IMO. You need to adapt and learn on every game you do.