The Ref Stop

Chelsea V United

Guys, and @JamesL I wouldn't blow for this either 99 times out of 100 and especially not if the dog and duck were watching!

But I question @Peter Grove the interpretation again. The guideline is about a rebound - what Courtois did was not a rebound. He controlled the ball with his hand.

Obvs one for the IFAB ;)
 
The Ref Stop
Peter Grove said:
a keeper who has a ball coming slowly towards them and pats it away with the hands as part of a ploy to get around the restrictions on goalkeeper control of the ball. That is what the law is intended to prevent,
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And yet it can't even prevent that in many cases. If the slowly moving ball is rolling towards goal even if it can barely make it over the line then it is considered a save and depending on how you interpret the law, you can be justified in not penalising it.
 
one said:
Not sure I agree with you here (not for this specific incident but in general). There are quite a few small bits of law that many don't know about but we do. This basically says ignore them. Often a free kick by a defender in his own PA is passed to another defender in the PA and no one knows why you ask for a retake, "but that's for a goal kick ref". Circumventing the laws of the game is another one.
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For me this is a great example, again, of knowing the LOTG, and, knowing how to apply them.
Anybody can know the LOTG
What makes you the referee that you are is knowing how and why and when to apply them.....huge difference....
An official when they take to the field are not simply charged with knowing the laws, the official is there to manage the game in the best possible way that they can, armed of course with the LOTG....
 
Also unless I missed it, United are not demanding a replay over it, Jose has not been referring to Mr Oliver as a bag of crisps, there was no mass pitch invasion by the fans over the non award, did it even get a mention in the Press and agree with above, its possible the only folk who even slightly care are us refs.
Football expects. Nobody bar a few pedantic traffic wardens on a rest day expected that call to be given.
 
santa sangria said:
Guys, and @JamesL I wouldn't blow for this either 99 times out of 100 and especially not if the dog and duck were watching!

But I question @Peter Grove the interpretation again. The guideline is about a rebound - what Courtois did was not a rebound. He controlled the ball with his hand.

Obvs one for the IFAB ;)
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Both @one and @Peter Grove have better explained my reasoning.
Put simply the offence is touching the ball after it has been released. Imo to be able to release the ball then the keeper must be in control, which you cant say GK was, yes he touched the ball with his hand, but he is allowed. He did not release the ball from his control.
As I say, and Peter has said, even the law makers have said that in their explanantion that the current form is not how the law was meant to be applied and specifically in the explanation of the change allow the action that GK took. You could argue that the law doesnt make provision for a keeper using the hand to prevent a restart.
I suggest you write to ifab and see what they say
 
I'm confused, is @Ciley Myrus saying it was an offence that we should not blow for? Is @Peter Grove saying it was an offence or not?

@JamesL Courtois controlled the ball with his hand and patted it to the ground.

As said, I wouldn't blow for this. I'm surprised I even noticed. I am even more surprised that it is not clear whether it was an offence or not. Double so that "football expects" and the "spirit" are being invoked. WTF. These defences are usually laughed out of the pedant threads. I'm only a beginner and Oliver fan BTW.
 
Am saying nobody expects you to give that, for that to be given, you need the whole stadium and everybody watching on tv to fall off their seats and shout, hey he cant do that.
My my own actual opinion on whether it was even an offence in the first place, no, not for me.
Another way to look at it which might put my thinking into perspective is at that game, consider in your mind a 50/50 passback shout. I would hope nobody is giving it. Then up the margin to 70/30. A maybe pass back in FA Cup final. Again, an experienced referee or one who is thinking ahead, does not give it.
 
Courtois, did control the ball with his hand. He is allowed to do so... he was however not incontrol.

A goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball when:
• the ball is between the hands or between the hand and any surface
(e.g. ground, own body) or by touching it with any part of the hands or arms
except if the ball rebounds accidentally from the goalkeeper or the
goalkeeper has made a save
• holding the ball in the outstretched open hand
• bouncing it on the ground or throwing it in the air

Another way to think of it is, would you have allowed GK to be challenged for that ball? I would have as I would not have considered him to be in control of it.

I could be wrong but I dont think the lotg outlaw the keeper from controlling the ball with his hand and I use the term control as an outfield player might with their foot as per how I interpret your use of the word control.
 
Peter Grove said:
I agree with @Big Cat; it's a practice that has been around for as long as I can recall and I have yet to see a keeper penalised for it in any high level game - because as far as I can tell it's something that has always been accepted as being done within the spirit of the game. I played in goal (on and off) for over 40 years and must have done this over a hundred times. I was never penalised for it and would have been astounded if I was.
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This is a VERY rarely penalized offence, and from what I recall, the 18/19 LotG attempted to address that by making it "meh, it's been the practice, so whatever".

I do recall two recent(ish) incidents clearly though. AC Milan's GK was penalized for this about 3-4 years ago, opposite side of the penalty area from the Courtois incident, and an IFK was given. (Can't find video of this one).

In an England international in 2014 vs San Marino this was penalized early in a match (the 5th minute!): https://streamable.com/dmvl9
 
AlexF said:
This is a VERY rarely penalized offence, and from what I recall, the 18/19 LotG attempted to address that by making it "meh, it's been the practice, so whatever".

I do recall two recent(ish) incidents clearly though. AC Milan's GK was penalized for this about 3-4 years ago, opposite side of the penalty area from the Courtois incident, and an IFK was given. (Can't find video of this one).

In an England international in 2014 vs San Marino this was penalized early in a match (the 5th minute!): https://streamable.com/dmvl9
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At the time.of that clip the law said:

A goalkeeper is not permitted to touch the ball with his hand inside his own
penalty area in the following circumstances:
• if he handles the ball again after it has been released from his possession
and has not touched any other player:
– the goalkeeper is considered to be in control of the ball by touching
it with any part of his hands or arms except if the ball rebounds
accidentally from him, e.g. after he has made a save
– possession of the ball includes the goalkeeper deliberately parrying the
ball

So it was correctly penalised.
 
All this rubbish about a completely missable handling offence means it must of been a doddle to referee. 1 KMI and a spurious band ball claim in 90 minutes cant be that bad. I could have reffed that, doddle!
 
JamesL said:
except if the ball rebounds accidentally from the goalkeeper or the
goalkeeper has made a save
.
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!That's why he was in control of the ball!

James James James I always agree with you! Until now! We've had this before haven't we...? While the GK is touching the ball with any part of the arm/hands he can't be challenged, no. So, if someone had headed the ball at the exact same moment as Courtois touched the ball with his palm you would have a decision to make;)
 
JamesL said:
Another way to think of it is, would you have allowed GK to be challenged for that ball? I would have as I would not have considered him to be in control of it.
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He can be challenged fairly. As the law reads, while the GK is touching the ball with any part of the hands or arms when it's not a rebound/save, then he can't be challenged. In this case, that means he can't be challenged fairly in the split second he is palming the ball. However, he could be challenged before that or after that, as long it isn't careless, reckless etc etc

Anyway, I wrote to the iFAB4. Fingers crossed for a reply;)
 
AlexF said:
do recall two recent(ish) incidents clearly though. AC Milan's GK was penalized for this about 3-4 years ago, opposite side of the penalty area from the Courtois incident, and an IFK was given. (Can't find video of this one).
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I remember a German referee giving an IDFK, because the ball rolled to the keeper who kneeled down and palmed the ball, then left it until a striker came after him and then picked the ball up.

I can't find the video though, but it was commended as the correct decision for an obscure law. Was that the AC Milan one you're thinking of?
 
AlexF said:
In an England international in 2014 vs San Marino this was penalized early in a match (the 5th minute!): https://streamable.com/dmvl9
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This is a very good post (goodness knows how you people dredge these clips up!) which explains why the confusion exists. Based on how the Law is universally applied, neither the Courtois or San Marino GK should be penalised at this time. However, Santa's interpretation of the wording of the Law is reasonable and highlights another dreadful section of the book
 
Big Cat said:
This is a very good post (goodness knows how you people dredge these clips up!) which explains why the confusion exists. Based on how the Law is universally applied, neither the Courtois or San Marino GK should be penalised at this time. However, Santa's interpretation of the wording of the Law is reasonable and highlights another dreadful section of the book
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I have an archive of clips that is... rather... er... comprehensive going back about 15 years.

RobOda said:
I remember a German referee giving an IDFK, because the ball rolled to the keeper who kneeled down and palmed the ball, then left it until a striker came after him and then picked the ball up.
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The description does sound correct -- I just wish that I could remember what match it was or when.

JamesL said:
At the time.of that clip the law said:

[...]

So it was correctly penalised.
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Agreed that it was penalised correctly at that time (though most such infringements were not).

And that latter part of the sentence is (I believe) why the Law is changing/has changed. The direction was to NOT penalize this (much like the 6s offence) if at all possible, and instead to manage it as best as is possible, and then to penalise repeated instances, but to make it clear to EVERYONE why that Xth instance is penalized, but the first A-W were not.
 
AlexF said:
And that latter part of the sentence is (I believe) why the Law is changing/has changed. The direction was to NOT penalize this (much like the 6s offence) if at all possible, and instead to manage it as best as is possible, and then to penalise repeated instances, but to make it clear to EVERYONE why that Xth instance is penalized, but the first A-W were not.
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Really?
When "this" happens once every five years?

I explicitly asked the iFAB about the "rule change" as well, so hopefully we get some more info.

(Because, without a citation, that last bit sounds made up to me!)
 
santa sangria said:
Really?
When "this" happens once every five years?
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The offence happens all the time. It isn't penalized at the top levels very often.

I used to see it penalized around these parts on a regular basis, but the instruction (which is what was passed along to us from the top level refs in these parts and was noted above) was to not be a "gotcha" referee (in essence), and to not stress about it, unless it was being done repeatedly and you (as referee) had made it clear that it needed to stop.
 
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