Body Cam
- Thread starter James P
- Start date
Could probably get a half decent one from Lidl aldi etc for about £30
You say that, but the majority of referees don't have expensive boots or buzzer flags. If only 10% of referees choose to wear body cams it stands to reason that only 10% of assualts will be prevented / captured.
There's also the question of where is the footage stored. If it is locally on the device or an SD card in it what is to stop the player who assaults you from ripping the camera off of your body after? To counter that you need a cloud enabled one, or have it tethered to your phone, and they won't come cheap.
And I still think the biggest concern is going to be around storage and deletion of data, there are all kinds of privacy and potential GDPR issues.
10% would be an absolutely huge sample size.
Lots of matches are filmed across the country at all levels. How do they get around privacy and GDPR rules? That's a genuine question as I don't know.
I am never going to wear one, they aremt for me. But the evidence is unequivocal that ref abuse is going up and efforts to reduce this so far have failed or are failing. Im absolutely all for anything that had the potential to reduce referee abuse.
Gamespoiler
Well-Known Member
You would need to consent of everyone in and around the match to be filmed. That just ain’t going to happen. The deterrents need to be stronger. Zero tolerance for referee assaults or abuse. Sin bins brought in to reduce dissent. Has it? Player goes off with no subsequent fine. I nearly always have at least 1 sinbin per game. Dissent is still there. Wack the fines up and introduce automatic bans for dissent . Sort that out and therefore sort out respect to the officials and assaults will naturally reduce
I’m with @Ben448844 in that I’d be interested to know why refs would need permission to film a game but clubs don’t appear to need permission to film games?
Veo cameras/media companies are at plenty of games down here now and I’ve never once been asked if I’m happy to have a camera shoved in my face.
Veo cameras/media companies are at plenty of games down here now and I’ve never once been asked if I’m happy to have a camera shoved in my face.
one
RefChat Addict
But they won't do it if you are wearing a body cam. Isn't it what it's for
The deeper problem of referee abuse and referee blaming culture is not something body cam can solve. Wear it and watch it being used against you.
Police Officer here, can confirm!
Anubis
RefChat Addict
I once did a fairly important national final, in the national stadium
To think todsy to do that same game, potentially I would have buzzer flag strap, comms kit, glt beep on watch, can of spray, and now a body cam, nevermind someone in a cupboard double checking my calls from multiple angles..
How on earth did I score a 86 on the marking system at the time without all the gadgets? ( buzzers existed, at that point i used them every so often)
To think todsy to do that same game, potentially I would have buzzer flag strap, comms kit, glt beep on watch, can of spray, and now a body cam, nevermind someone in a cupboard double checking my calls from multiple angles..
How on earth did I score a 86 on the marking system at the time without all the gadgets? ( buzzers existed, at that point i used them every so often)
RefJef
RefChat Addict
When I was thinking of taking up the whistle, I thought about getting a bodycam, only to then discover I wasn’t allowed to wear one.
The reason why I thought wearing one would be a good idea would be so I could then review the footage and analyse my decisions, to see what I got right and what I got wrong and how I could improve. Perhaps naively, I gave no thought to wearing one for my own protection.
If they did come in, I think I would try wearing one, but just to watch back the game from my POV. One of the problems with grassroots refereeing is a lack of impartial and useful feedback and I think bodycams my have a part to play in overcoming that shortcoming.
(In the same vein, I think they would also be really useful to watch back any instances of dissent to see if I could have managed it better. Whilst I am not absolving players of responsibility, I do think (but have no evidence, hence bodycams would be useful) that when I have had a game with a lot of dissen, how I have responded has possibly led to an escalation in dissent)
TLDR; I think bodycams could be useful for self-development as a referee
The reason why I thought wearing one would be a good idea would be so I could then review the footage and analyse my decisions, to see what I got right and what I got wrong and how I could improve. Perhaps naively, I gave no thought to wearing one for my own protection.
If they did come in, I think I would try wearing one, but just to watch back the game from my POV. One of the problems with grassroots refereeing is a lack of impartial and useful feedback and I think bodycams my have a part to play in overcoming that shortcoming.
(In the same vein, I think they would also be really useful to watch back any instances of dissent to see if I could have managed it better. Whilst I am not absolving players of responsibility, I do think (but have no evidence, hence bodycams would be useful) that when I have had a game with a lot of dissen, how I have responded has possibly led to an escalation in dissent)
TLDR; I think bodycams could be useful for self-development as a referee
Getting permission from players would be quite straight forward as they would sign something before the season starts and the way people are writing suggests they believe the whole game is going to be recorded. Surely you'd just turn it on if / when you felt the need!!
There is an issue around storage of data and ensuring it doesn't end up in the wrong hands but I would hope this would be policed with civil and criminal repercussions if it did.
Btw I voted "NO" but that is because to date I have never felt the need, but that doesn't mean I won't change my mind one day. I would definitely support a trial to gather proper evidence which can then be published for all to see, then make a more informed decision on whether to wear one or not.
There is an issue around storage of data and ensuring it doesn't end up in the wrong hands but I would hope this would be policed with civil and criminal repercussions if it did.
Btw I voted "NO" but that is because to date I have never felt the need, but that doesn't mean I won't change my mind one day. I would definitely support a trial to gather proper evidence which can then be published for all to see, then make a more informed decision on whether to wear one or not.
A couple of people have mentioned this: I think it would be a great tool for reviewing decisions.
I wouldn't wear one unless it could be made invisible. Then I might.
Refsupport UK is just PR for a sports consultancy. They are only interested in column inches and social media prominence. The way they exploited that 16 year old a few years ago was pretty revolting.
I wouldn't wear one unless it could be made invisible. Then I might.
Refsupport UK is just PR for a sports consultancy. They are only interested in column inches and social media prominence. The way they exploited that 16 year old a few years ago was pretty revolting.
I've just thought of an example where having a body cam would have helped.
I once dismissed a player who later claimed to the CFA that I had made what amounted to a racist remark: "You might get away with that where you're from, but you're not getting away with it here."
I had not said that or anything that could possibly be interpreted to mean that. By sheer good luck the other team were my old club and several of their players that were within earshot of the conversation wrote to the FA saying they had heard the conversation and I didn't say anything like it. The disciplinary case was dropped.
I once dismissed a player who later claimed to the CFA that I had made what amounted to a racist remark: "You might get away with that where you're from, but you're not getting away with it here."
I had not said that or anything that could possibly be interpreted to mean that. By sheer good luck the other team were my old club and several of their players that were within earshot of the conversation wrote to the FA saying they had heard the conversation and I didn't say anything like it. The disciplinary case was dropped.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
Can't agree there. There are thousands of hours of footage recorded by thousands of people at hundreds of games - I bet no one has been asked their permission - and that's not even counting the main stream broadcasters and the professional clubs' own footage.
Have YOU ever been asked for your permission to 'use' footage of yourself at a game - as either a referee or a spectator?
As the Police have pointed out more than once over the years, its not actually illegal to capture images of anything you like (apart from the obvious!) in a public place & that includes football matches and that includes all ages.
I thought most football tickets have it in their t&cs.
Public places does not require consent.
I think you at least have to have some privacy policy to film on private land.
It's not so much permission to do so in the first place it's about the storage of the data and having processes in place to comply with Gdpr.
For example, if you are on Cctv you can make a subject access request for the parts of the video recorded that you appear in.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
That's my point James, its not illegal to record images per se, its what's done with them that's the issue, and you can't tell that from just seeing a camera.
"You can't film here' is pretty meaningless legally.
Just checked a random QPR ticket and doesn't mention it specifically and not easy to find but it is issued 'subject to conditions of issue and the rules and regulations of everyone from FIFA to the club themselves - so there maybe something in all that lot about recording/using images I guess!
However my point remains that that doesn't apply to all the phone users at the matches.
"You can't film here' is pretty meaningless legally.
Just checked a random QPR ticket and doesn't mention it specifically and not easy to find but it is issued 'subject to conditions of issue and the rules and regulations of everyone from FIFA to the club themselves - so there maybe something in all that lot about recording/using images I guess!
However my point remains that that doesn't apply to all the phone users at the matches.
I was just looking at swfc t&cs. It says can't take recording equipment in or broadcast but can have mobile for personal use.
That would defeat the object surely. Some of the high profile referee assualts we have seen have come out of almost nothing, you aren't going to want to be faffing around trying to turn your camera on as a player is winding his fist back. It would really need to be left on for the whole game.
There are two different things. Just because lots of clubs record games doesn't mean they are fully aware of the rules and regulations.
If the laws were changed to allow body cams I'm pretty sure the governing bodies would need to make sure that any recordings are properly stored, secured, and deleted as appropriate. It probably isn't likely to happen, but if you record a player and he is personally identifiable in that recording (for example shirt number being matched with online team sheet) he has a legal right to request access to that recording via a DSAR. Not sure who you would issue the DSAR to, would be tricky for an individual referee, but perhaps it would have to be the CFA. Don't know the answers, but it isn't as simple as people being allowed to record, it is what happens to that recording afterwards that is the bigger issue.
DSARs can only be submitted to Data Controllers. An individual referee is not a Data Controller any more than a person taking photos of players with their names on their shirts is.
If footage from a body cam is submitted to a CFA (or the police) for disciplinary purposes then a DSAR could be issued to them and I'm sure they have processes in place to accommodate them.
Veo (and all the clubs using them) seem to have managed these issues without fuss.