A&H

Bobby Madden article

The Referee Store
Not sure how we got here, but realistically, will we see a change in this system over the coming years?
 
Every comment section and pundit-cast is already full of cries of 'accountability' (to whom?) and 'corruption'. If you suggested moving the marks away from clubs, there'd be uproar. 'Marking their own homework,' and so on.
 
JBeil said:
Every comment section and pundit-cast is already full of cries of 'accountability' (to whom?) and 'corruption'. If you suggested moving the marks away from clubs, there'd be uproar. 'Marking their own homework,' and so on.
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I’m not sure why you think this would cause ‘uproar’ and even if it did, why would it matter.

As someone from a different country and system it absolutely blows my mind that club marks still are used and also play such an influential part in the progress of referees.

The only people who should be assessing/giving marks are qualified referees or observers. Clubs are neither qualified in this nor are they impartial so should have no say in this.
 
Club marks are a necessary evil at lower levels, because there aren't enough qualified observers to go around. But as soon as you're at a level where it's reasonable to expect observers at over 50% of games, they should be collected for informational reasons only.

Now, we've had discussions recently about why there is a difference between refereeing for observer and refereeing for club marks. And that would concern me if there was talk of switching to observer-only marking. Outside of obvious bias (which would in theory influence your marks positively with one club and negatively with the other), they should be looking for the same thing. And it worried me that there's such an openly accepted difference in what "football expects" depending on who's asked.
 
I just find club marks a frustrating overhang at the end of games. I got my club scores recently, no idea what they mean.

The end of every game always goes 'are you going to put those cards through referee, hahaa only joking mate'. Or 'that soft penalty you gave on the 50th minute ruined the game mate'.

I had a coach tell me, I need to explain to his lads why I'm turning the foul throws over. I told him I have been, he then brought his lads over who repeated to the gaffer what I had told him. So he just glared at me.

It does explain some of the conversations we have about a lot of premier refs seem to be completely non-reactive to dissent, crowding, and so forth. That's the sort of personalities that system promotes.
 
I despise club marks, they represent nothing more than a collection of unqualified and biased opinions and there is no value in them.
 
Club Marks are useful when they are done properly. To say they have no value is unfair to those that do it properly. Yes some can be cast aside as nothing more than a reaction to a loss. I think at the level I am at, clubs are able to and sometimes have to comment on why they are giving a mark. And sometimes you look at it and say, yes that's fair.
At the end of the day we are providing a service. In the service industry it is common to seek feedback on how you are perceived to be performing in a number of metrics. Club marks are just the same, they are essentially a customer satisfaction tool. Any business that discards what it's customers think is destined to fail. Not saying refs will fail but you might just get that 1% of something off a club and that could make all the difference in being promoted, demoted or retained.
 
JamesL said:
Club Marks are useful when they are done properly. To say they have no value is unfair to those that do it properly. Yes some can be cast aside as nothing more than a reaction to a loss. I think at the level I am at, clubs are able to and sometimes have to comment on why they are giving a mark. And sometimes you look at it and say, yes that's fair.
At the end of the day we are providing a service. In the service industry it is common to seek feedback on how you are perceived to be performing in a number of metrics. Club marks are just the same, they are essentially a customer satisfaction tool. Any business that discards what it's customers think is destined to fail. Not saying refs will fail but you might just get that 1% of something off a club and that could make all the difference in being promoted, demoted or retained.
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i think the main point is, why would you consider club marks at all when every game is (to go with your analogy) mystery-shopped?
 
JamesL said:
Club Marks are useful when they are done properly. To say they have no value is unfair to those that do it properly. Yes some can be cast aside as nothing more than a reaction to a loss. I think at the level I am at, clubs are able to and sometimes have to comment on why they are giving a mark. And sometimes you look at it and say, yes that's fair.
At the end of the day we are providing a service. In the service industry it is common to seek feedback on how you are perceived to be performing in a number of metrics. Club marks are just the same, they are essentially a customer satisfaction tool. Any business that discards what it's customers think is destined to fail. Not saying refs will fail but you might just get that 1% of something off a club and that could make all the difference in being promoted, demoted or retained.
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But again, if you think about it like that, why are we also being judged on different sets of internal (observer) criteria?

I can completely buy into the idea that we're providing a service to the clubs, but to take the service industry analogy to it's conclusion, the objective of gathering that kind of data is usually to align the service with the expectations. We're not doing that - we're just being marked to two concurrent but different sets of standards.

And I've seen no real indication that observer expectations are being adjusted to align with those of "customers", so it's just a complicated way of giving us conflicting job requirements. In most day jobs, having multiple managers telling you multiple different things with no one overarching decision maker deciding on priorities is the definition of how to annoy your staff!
 
JamesL said:
At the end of the day we are providing a service. In the service industry it is common to seek feedback on how you are perceived to be performing in a number of metrics. Club marks are just the same, they are essentially a customer satisfaction tool. Any business that discards what it's customers think is destined to fail.
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I get where you're coming from with that James but football is emotive and almost totally subjective.
Even in the business world, customers don't get to dictate the "rules". The company providing the service does. Customers effectively sign up to a pre-agreed terms and conditions based level of service and their expectations around that are met, including things such as price to be paid and due date etc. Football ain't the same. Coaches/clubs can't expect the referee to do what they think he/she should and expect to win. We as referees aren't providing the same thing at all.

Somebody once said on here that referee's club marks are like criminals giving marks to their judge. Thats about the sum of it. :D
 
es1 said:
i think the main point is, why would you consider club marks at all when every game is (to go with your analogy) mystery-shopped?
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Good word, consider.
Why would you not consider them? Some are good, some are bad? Some are down the middle. It's your prerogative to consider them and decide of what worth it is to you.
Example, I got hammered off a club this season, their comments weren't justified and in a couple of cases wholly incorrect. So I cast that one
aside.
Conversely, I had another one, I read the feedback agreed it was fair and well made point and was able to adapt slightly as a result.

You all seem to think I am advocating the club mark system here. I was more responding to the cast them aside, do nothing about them and them being worthless. While ever they are in operation and have influence on your refereeing status they are far from worthless.

You all make good points as well I'm just saying make your own mind up on a case by case basis. It's free feedback and some of it can actually be useful as believe it or not there's some good people about
 
I've used @JamesL 's argument before. If I get a plumber through CheckATrade I get asked to rate them after. I am literally the worst DIY person ever and have absolutely zero credibility in rating their work. At least someone marking a referee has some experience in the sport being played.

At grass roots clubs marks have become less and less important, and now have pretty much no relevance for promotion. I seem to remember being told that at Football League level the managers (or whoever is marking) discuss the marks with the match day delegate, an ex-professional player who effectively acts as the conduit between the clubs and PGMOL. That said, I agree they have no place in the professional game where every match has an independent observer or review panel. At grass roots they remain invaluable for RefsSecs, they aren't enough observers even for promotion candidates, and without club marks RefSecs have absolutely no idea who their best officials are for cup finals, big games, etc. Yes, there are some outlying marks, but generally over the course of a season they paint an accurate picture of a referee's ability.
 
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